What do I need to know about cave diving?

[danvolker]

Thanks again to everybody. As NetDoc mentioned there are so many people in the diving community that put the sport above themselves and their businesses. That is one of the reasons that I pushed my son into diving rather than into competitive sports. To the couple of people that addressed the difference in the caves in DR versus true cave diving. I think I understand that it is somewhat apples and oranges, and I say that because I know that there are continuously things that I think I understand that I find out that I am wrong about. I would not even expect Cueva Taina, which it was, to be typical for there. It was pretty wide open and I expect that is the exception anywhere.

As for the safety of it, I would feel a lot more comfortable with the outfit I dove with in DR compared to the one that I worked with near Playa del Carmen. The one I went with in DR would not take my son or father in law, due to not being comfortable with their skills and we were sandwiched between 2 divemasters. They were single cylinders but I don't think that there would have been any major problems sharing air if an issue arose. I am not saying that things should not change but the safety, at least for the ones I went with in DR, is night and day compared to Mexico. The divers were screened, but they were continually taken into caves with equipment that had proven to be suspect during open water dives with just one person to lead the dives. A second person would go if they were available, but if not on they went. On OW dives, they had a low pressure hose go out while I was down there and I understood that was not the first time or even the second. This was the same rental equipment that went on the cave dives. Like I said, I am not trying to defend DR, but Mexico should be MUCH MORE of a concern.

Getting back to myself. I would agree with NetDoc that I need to learn several things from a respected techie. It is one thing to have good buoyancy in the open and another when you are going to create a fog of silt if you mess up. The instructors that I had in Panama could probably compete with anyone when It comes to teaching OW. ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON TO MEXICO, and better as a whole to anywhere else I have been. Still they rarely had the physical obstacles and limited field of motion that I would need to learn to deal with while maintaining buoyancy.

I guess that I will investigate the wings and backplate. I have been around sidemount divers quite a bit and will have the opportunity to get certified in open water for it when I visit a friend in a couple of months. I think that it will be beneficial but I will have it readily available later. I am a firm believer that becoming comfortable with your own equipment improves your skills, reaction and safety. I need a new BC anyhow. I have lost 70lbs since I bought mine, and so it is a little on the big side. Thanks again to everyone.

The wings and backplate concept should be very easy for you to transfer to....the only thing different in skills, is the necklace reg and primary that you donate if a buddy gets low on air ( or if a team really screws the pooch and one actually runs OOA) ....But in water use has nothing to really learn in moving from stab jacket....it is way slicker, and far less prone to having dragging pressure guages and octopus, and the other nonsense typically dragging on many OW divers.

So whatever skill level you are at now, with your 200 to 499 dives listed....you should not take any real step backward on the switch--in terms of your confidence and ability to handle all contingencies with the new bp/wing rig over what you had with the rig you did the 200 to 400 dives with.....

On the other hand, going to Side Mount means lots of major changes, and new configuration needs...and then having many buddies with no idea how to figure out if one tank is low or out, or how to see problems in development, before they become critical. For someone that is already a cavediver for thousands of cave dives, switching will require a learning curve, but they don't have to learn all the cave diving skills and practices as well--so they have an easy learning curve....

You will have an enormous amount of new skills to process and develop--just in cavern and then cave.....and you really should not want to up the ante even further with changing to sidemount....it's just too many new skills, and the majority of cave divers STILL consider back mounted to be better...and most that choose the side mount do so for specific applications where the side mount makes sense..like a restriction the is very low vertically, but plenty wide.

But sidemount vs backmount can be an argument of Religious proportions....I just did my best to avoid upsetting any of the Jihaddists that easily take offense ( this can happen easily on either side )

 

[karstdvr]

They were single cylinders but I don't think that there would have been any major problems sharing air if an issue arose. I am not saying that things should not change but the safety, at least for the ones I went with in DR, is night and day compared to Mexico....I am not trying to defend DR, but Mexico should be MUCH MORE of a concern.

I am say kudos to you for seeking training and doing it right.

To the visiting divers that go to Mexico and DR and do a "safe" cave dive with "divemasters"-run,not a little but run fast. These people are playing Russian Roulette with your life,because even though they are close and available for an air share,what do you do in a silt out? How about a gas failure with the guide? Etc,Etc... If you enter the overhead with anything less than the proper equipment and training you have increased your probability of becoming a statisitic several fold. I hate to say we continue to hear about fatalities that happen in these situations from time to time,and they all are completely preventable. Their motivation to make money is an enticement to encourage people to do something unsafe.

 

[ucfdiver]

I am say kudos to you for seeking training and doing it right.

To the visiting divers that go to Mexico and DR and do a "safe" cave dive with "divemasters"-run,not a little but run fast. These people are playing Russian Roulette with your life,because even though they are close and available for an air share,what do you do in a silt out? How about a gas failure with the guide? Etc,Etc... If you enter the overhead with anything less than the proper equipment and training you have increased your probability of becoming a statisitic several fold. I hate to say we continue to hear about fatalities that happen in these situations from time to time,and they all are completely preventable. Their motivation to make money is an enticement to encourage people to do something unsafe.

I took cavern with OW gear (jacket BC, no long hose, AL80), *ZERO* introduction to technical diving training, etc. I think that's fairly common in FL, even through cave agencies. While I agree that guided dives have risks, I think they're not well mitigated by the cave agency I took cavern through. I would encourage the OP to do lots of research on the training they're receiving and not simply assume that because they took a class they're safe.

 

[karstdvr]

*ZERO* introduction to technical diving training, etc.

Cavern isn't technical diving,it is basic survival skills in the overhead with an available ascent from natural sun light light. This class was designed to be taught in basic OW gear,but with modifications.

The issue that many people have is that you have people in OW gear,with no overhead training,no redundancy,going a significant distance back in the cave zone. Your 100% dependent on your guide to get you out alive,and there have been numerous instances of things going wrong,and the visitor perishing. These people who are visiting the cenotes need to be warned that is not,and never will be a safe practice,even if you having a guide using words like,"you look good in the water","you want to see something different" etc.... We don't want to be hypocritical. When we hear about this type of thing occurring at Eagles Nest with a local shop,the community goes ape **** ballisitic,but in Mexico and DR we blow it off as"that is over there". I feel there is an obligation to warn visiting divers to not spend their money on "safe" OW cave dives,and then hopefully this practice will go away. My apologies for the rant,but when I chaired the CDS we saw quite a few people die at the hands of operators like that,and their sole focus was money driven,but we couldn't convince the local cave community to intervene. At that time we got a very sad letter from a family about what transpired,it was truly completely preventable.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Unfortunately, there's a lot of money driven activity happening that puts divers at risk, even locally. It's not as bad here as in Mexico and the Dominican Republic, but it happens. Sadly, in Mexico, where they do have some standards for registered guides, one of the standards is not experience. I know of a couple of new cave divers in Mexico who are guiding. They're still learning cave diving themselves yet are allowed to take OW divers in there themselves!

 

[kwinter]

Isn't there also still an issue of doubles vs. singles at the cavern and intro level? And doesn't that also carry over to sidemount? Way back when, you weren't allowed to do cavern or intro in doubles unless you got special permission because of prior OW experience in doubles. And wasn't there also a thread recently on CDF about a different certification for doubles? I only ask because some people were recommending BP/W configurations or sidemount.

 

[barefootek]

I understand that it would not be easy to try to regulate things in countries foreign to the US, but could you not urge the certification organizations to revoke certifications for people leading untrained divers into caves? I know that lawsuits are a completely different animal outside of the US but I would guess that many of the certification organizations would be similar to PADI and based out of the states and therefore subject to suit within the US. By not addressing the issue, it could be argued that they are condoning it by inaction. Also would it not be an option to attack the situation through the normal recreational certification organizations? Most of the guides are diving professionals through organizations such as PADI, SSI, SDI, etc. When they take untrained divers into technical diving situations, they are breaking standards set up by those organizations, at least in my opinion. It seems to me that the technical organizations could work with the recreational agencies to attack the program by suspending the instructor, divemaster, dive con certifications of those leading the dives and the shop licenses of the businesses providing them. I am sure that things are not as simple as I am making them out to be, but I would have thought that there would have been those avenues.

 

[karstdvr]

I understand that it would not be easy to try to regulate things in countries foreign to the US, but could you not urge the certification organizations to revoke certifications for people leading untrained divers into caves? I know that lawsuits are a completely different animal outside of the US but I would guess that many of the certification organizations would be similar to PADI and based out of the states and therefore subject to suit within the US. By not addressing the issue, it could be argued that they are condoning it by inaction. Also would it not be an option to attack the situation through the normal recreational certification organizations? Most of the guides are diving professionals through organizations such as PADI, SSI, SDI, etc. When they take untrained divers into technical diving situations, they are breaking standards set up by those organizations, at least in my opinion. It seems to me that the technical organizations could work with the recreational agencies to attack the program by suspending the instructor, divemaster, dive con certifications of those leading the dives and the shop licenses of the businesses providing them. I am sure that things are not as simple as I am making them out to be, but I would have thought that there would have been those avenues.

You bring up some good points. Many instructors have credentials with many agencies,so we have seen some do some crazy things,and start teaching with another agency. The way you stop it is what feeds it,that is money. If people are well educated about that before traveling there,and no one will do it,then it will dry up.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Isn't there also still an issue of doubles vs. singles at the cavern and intro level? And doesn't that also carry over to sidemount? Way back when, you weren't allowed to do cavern or intro in doubles unless you got special permission because of prior OW experience in doubles. And wasn't there also a thread recently on CDF about a different certification for doubles? I only ask because some people were recommending BP/W configurations or sidemount.

There used to be but that has changed. It's been a few years since I've had a single tank diver in a class. Most of my students start at the cavern level in doubles, be it backmount or sidemount. I do require prior experience in the configuration. A cavern class isn't the place to learn how to dive doubles or sidemount but there's no issue with teaching cavern or intro in doubles cylinders. NACD and NSS-CDS do have expiring certifications for intro cave completed in doubles. This is mainly to encourage intro cave divers to continue with their training rather than remain at the intro cave level and be tempted to dive beyond their training.

---------- Post added December 1st, 2013 at 10:04 PM ----------

I understand that it would not be easy to try to regulate things in countries foreign to the US, but could you not urge the certification organizations to revoke certifications for people leading untrained divers into caves? I know that lawsuits are a completely different animal outside of the US but I would guess that many of the certification organizations would be similar to PADI and based out of the states and therefore subject to suit within the US. By not addressing the issue, it could be argued that they are condoning it by inaction. Also would it not be an option to attack the situation through the normal recreational certification organizations? Most of the guides are diving professionals through organizations such as PADI, SSI, SDI, etc. When they take untrained divers into technical diving situations, they are breaking standards set up by those organizations, at least in my opinion. It seems to me that the technical organizations could work with the recreational agencies to attack the program by suspending the instructor, divemaster, dive con certifications of those leading the dives and the shop licenses of the businesses providing them. I am sure that things are not as simple as I am making them out to be, but I would have thought that there would have been those avenues.

It's not that simple. Like Kelly stated, many instructors are certified through multiple agencies so you'd have to get all the agencies to cooperate. Also, standards only apply when the instructor is teaching a class. A PADI instructor cannot be sanctioned by PADI for taking divers on a guided dive. What standards have been violated? Besides, it's difficult enough to get an agency to do something when an instructor is actually violating standards during a class.

 

[barefootek]

Mr Neto, you have me curious as to what standard they are breaking, but I feel sure that there would be one. Unfortunately, I do not have my Guide to Teach here at the house. I found a copy of the PADI Membership Agreement online, but All it seems to address is bad mouthing PADI. When a diver is paying for a dive like that then it appears to me like the one leading it would be acting like a divemaster and therefore representing the certification organization. I have to think that somewhere in the standards it tells me that I cannot lead them into a situation that they are not qualified to go. What standard am I breaking if I lead them down to 150ft or keep them down into deco? I understand that as certified divers they should understand those are things they should not do, but what is the point of a divemaster certification if the only standards they are adhering to deal with instruction. PADI should just do away with divemaster and bring back the Assistant Instructor which seems to have gone by the wayside.

In all due respect, Karstdvr, you will never put a dent in the money by educating the diver. When I went to DR, I considered myself perfectly safe, and having not gone through any cave training I still can't appreciate the dangers that I may have put myself in. I understand them a little better after being at a diveshop that probably sent people into the cenotes in Mexico 4 to 5 times a week and seeing how they did it. The diveshop in DR was at least reasonably concerned with safety. Once again, I make that statement not fully understanding the dangers, but that is my point. Without going through cave training, even the relatively well educated recreational diver is not going to understand. You can't shut off the demand of the uneducated, so you will have to shut it off at the supply side. The only positive thing I see is that the cave business in DR and in Mexico is a minor portion of their profits. If you can hinder their recreation business through their certifications or licenses then you might have a chance, otherwise, hang it up.

Mr Neto, you have me curious so I will do some research in the next few days. I will get back to you on what standards I think are being broken. I will agree that it probably won't do any good. I am aware of a couple of dive shops that have basically thumbed their nose at PADI. One was suspended but still basically operates as a PADI diveshop since the instructors are "independent contractors". The other has been running under the radar although a recent death may change that. The death itself may or may not have been due to their actions but they will probably be under more of a microscope.