What defines a "cave"?

[Dive-aholic]

Some divers keep the promises they made to their OW Instructor who has no clue about what we do, and they do not go into the "deadly" overhead. Some divers are so bad on the "test" dive that we don't allow them in the "real" overheads, but that is very, very rare.

So you guys have "fake" overheads in Hawaii?

 

[sea_ledford]

So at the risk of appearing to be on Halemanos side on this (Sorry, you're on your own there!)...

What do you learn in a cavern class that is directly applicable to diving through a 20 foot lava tube? I'm not asking in jest, I haven't ever taken a cavern class, so I don't know what is covered. I have an idea of what is covered (or what I THINK should be covered) in a cavern class that is taken as a pre-req for cave diving, but seriously, what should be taught to these divers to make them safely and fully trained in this situation?

And is it financially feasible to do it on a vacation? How long would it take? Should all divers have a cavern cert before diving a lava tube regardless of how short it is? Should all the dive guides be cavern instructors? Is this a true safety concern or is this a standards concern. If it's the latter PADI has been more than willing to change standard for Hawaii in the past.

Did you know in Hawaii you can do your "confined water" dives in the same place you do your "Open water" dives? Yup, 'cause the conditions are "pool-like!" So the first time a diver is getting in the water in a full set of gear, they are doing a surf entry through sand (albeit very small surf... but it still isn't the pool edge!) and then doing skills for the first time in swells and/or current. I did a full openwater class in Hawaii once... never again. It's just dumb, even if it is allowed. But I digress...

I see the precedence problem that has been pointed out. So how do you solve it?

Chris

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

So at the risk of appearing to be on Halemano's side on this (Sorry, you're on your own there!)...

No worries Chris, I didn't expect any other experienced Maui instructor would want to wallow in the silt with me on this one.

 

[BrianKon]

This has been a concern of mine since I started diving in Hawaii, as a customer I was always confident in my ability, as a newely Advanced diver, I was taken into a Long Lavatube, this was my first overhead environment I only had 20 or so dives. I did enjoy it, but only because there were two divers and the DM, if I was the end of a group of six, I probably wouldn't have had any fun. Fast forward to DM/Instructor now that I lead these dives I have more appreciation for the additional training that should be a requirement. After checking with PADI I did get clarification and yes there does seem to be an exception for Hawaii and Lavatubes.

I would personally like to see a Dive Today or Discover Cavern Diving - where some basic information would be included in the standard dive briefing - much like the Nitrox Dive Today or Discover Nitrox.

Even though it is not required for me to have the specialty, I am going to attain it as part of my Master Scuba Diver Trainer application. I figure it will only help me to ensure that my customers will receive the best guiding experience.

WARNING NOTE: PADI warns against deviating from the standards, please adhere. There are many cases where even though a dive operation was more conservative than the standards, it was proven that if they deviated from one standard it is reason to believe they deviated from all standards and lost their ability to defend their actions.

Safe dive practices will ensure you live to dive another day...

brian

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The only thing I see here is a few folks advocating a break in standards that are supposed to be upheld in EVERY training agency when it comes to the BOW certification.

I'm curious as to whether your liability insurance covers any sort of incident that may occur when leading a diver into an overhead environment?

Is your agency OK with you taking students to such dives? Or do they not know?

So is it OK within PADI standards to be doing what the Island Dive Industry is doing? Well, perhaps these are "special orientation dives for certified divers" and thus OK -- but perhaps they are not.

So what explanation could they give? That your money means more to them than your safety? That agency standards don't apply to them?

It would seem that this is an admission of a standards violation?

Is this a true safety concern or is this a standards concern.

I am pretty sure Training Standards for the Training Agencies only apply to Training Dives. I have not heard of any Guiding Agencies with Guiding Standards for Guided Dives. :shocked2:

Most of the customers that I have guided into lava tubes / caverns have been customers of my employers, and nearly all those employers have a "Shop Insurance Policy" that that I am/was listed on. I have been (may be) listed on one Molokini boat's "Shop Policy" even though I have never worked for them, and I have guided my personal customers through lava tube / caverns from that boat, without any dive pro liability insurance of my own.

One of my current co workers used to work at PADI HQ, and he is in regular contact with PADI HQ personal. AFAIHS, every dive operator in the Hawaiian Islands does guided lava tube / cavern dives with divers who just have OW certs. PADI HQ personal come to Hawaii and go on dive charters.

AFAIU, this has been going on for many decades. I have been in Hawaii for all but 3 years since '91 and I have never heard of a dive operator guided dive accident involving a lava tube / cavern tour, even from the "old timers."

IMHO, the State of Florida is the reason for the current situation. IIRC, Florida started closing caves due to all the young men who found out they were not immortal in Florida caves. AIUI, the combination of Cave Training agencies, Military Court Martial rules, "Warnings" in Recreational Training manuals and more convinced Florida to take the gates off the caves.

But judging once again from the lack of bodies being fished out of these tubes, throughout history, I would judge these tubes here to be fairly non-threatening.

Infinitely more dive accidents are happening to guided divers in Hawaii's open water than are happening to guided divers in Hawaii's lava tube / caverns. Could it be that going into the overhead environment causes beginners to pay attention and think, so the overhead tour is actually safer than the open water tour where beginning divers are not so diligent?

 

[soltari675]

I did a dive at Paradise Springs in central Florida yesterday. I am a new diver, and wanted to get an idea of other kinds of diving. I tried ocean this week, and I tried cavern at Paradise. Now, all 3 dives I did there ended very well. I had a good time, was with good people, etc. On one particular dive, I went to about 130 feet, a few feet past the sign that said it was a cave. I got a picture of the tombstone of a diver who went down there and messed up. It was an eye opener. What really woke me up though was while I was looking at the fossils in the rocks, I turned around to slowly head back (I definitely wasn't going deeper. The place goes to 145 or something), and when I turned I messed up and kicked up some silt. I had been doing great the whole time until then.

Long story short, when the silt came up I realized I could not see a thing. I nearly panicked. I do not panic easy at all. Two things made it a brief problem and a good outcome. 1. I remembered everything I had been taught to that point and kept calm and made sure to breath regular and not freak. and 2. I had an instructor and dive master with me showing me the site who immediately showed me the guide line. Once I saw the line, I was fine. (Again, it takes a lot to make me panic). I followed the line to clear water and where I could see the exit.

What I learned from that short experience though was a good respect for cave divers and the environment. It looked safe enough. It was open, easy to fit 2 divers in that spot, and seemed safe enough. But one small mistake, and the situation could have been deadly if I didn't have much more experienced people right there. I probably won't go that deep into a cavern again without taking a cavern course. It was a good lesson.

 

[Dive-aholic]

So at the risk of appearing to be on Halemanos side on this (Sorry, you're on your own there!)...

What do you learn in a cavern class that is directly applicable to diving through a 20 foot lava tube? I'm not asking in jest, I haven't ever taken a cavern class, so I don't know what is covered. I have an idea of what is covered (or what I THINK should be covered) in a cavern class that is taken as a pre-req for cave diving, but seriously, what should be taught to these divers to make them safely and fully trained in this situation?

And is it financially feasible to do it on a vacation? How long would it take? Should all divers have a cavern cert before diving a lava tube regardless of how short it is? Should all the dive guides be cavern instructors? Is this a true safety concern or is this a standards concern. If it's the latter PADI has been more than willing to change standard for Hawaii in the past.

Did you know in Hawaii you can do your "confined water" dives in the same place you do your "Open water" dives? Yup, 'cause the conditions are "pool-like!" So the first time a diver is getting in the water in a full set of gear, they are doing a surf entry through sand (albeit very small surf... but it still isn't the pool edge!) and then doing skills for the first time in swells and/or current. I did a full openwater class in Hawaii once... never again. It's just dumb, even if it is allowed. But I digress...

I see the precedence problem that has been pointed out. So how do you solve it?

Chris

In a simple, straight 20 foot lava tube that's large enough for 2 divers to swim side by side and always see daylight, meaning no need for a dive light, you won't learn much in a cavern class to helpl with that.

However, bring a new diver into an environment like that and next thing that diver will be doing is justifying to him/herself why it's okay to go through a more complex overhead. This is why I also have a problem with places like Ginnie, Blue Grotto, Paradise, and Vortex being "okay" for OW divers. They're not okay. They are overhead environments that deserve respect.

Soltari, where you went in Paradise is beyond the cavern zone. You were in a cave. And you experienced what could happen in a cave. Even though Paradise is a long slanted tube, it is still dangerous. It could be very easy to get lost long enough to die in there. I don't know who the instructor with you was, but even if he was a cave instructor, he had no business bringing you beyond the cavern zone with no previous training. You are lucky to have your situation end as well as it did.