What are your thought on releasing accident information?

[TEKDiveUSA]

Join Gareth Lock and David Concannon at TEKDiveUSA.2018 April 27th-29th in Orlando, Florida. They will be debating the "RELEASING ACCIDENT INFORMATION: THE CONFLICT BETWEEN LEARNING FROM EXPERIENCE AND THREAT OF LITIGATION" A look at the significant challenges involved in resolving the conflict between the litigious nature of society, which protects information and seeks to assign fault, and the need to share detailed and context rich information to show Read More here

 

[tbone1004]

glad it's them not Ken Hill talking. If he was your guest speaker then there would be no point in showing up.... That said, I sincerely hope he's in the audience and paying attention so the IUCRR actually might do something in the near future

 

[clownfishsydney]

I am of the view that everything known should be shared by the people involved as soon as possible. I personally did this after a dive I organised where a dear friend died. Why? So people could learn from it (she did nothing wrong at all, it was immersion pulmonary edema). Everyone on the dive, including the buddy and all others involved in the attempted resuscitation also agreed. Even her family agreed it was important for the information to be shared.

 

[kensuf]

I am of the view that everything known should be shared by the people involved as soon as possible. I personally did this after a dive I organised where a dear friend died. Why? So people could learn from it (she did nothing wrong at all, it was immersion pulmonary edema). Everyone on the dive, including the buddy and all others involved in the attempted resuscitation also agreed. Even her family agreed it was important for the information to be shared.

Would you and her family have felt the same way if she committed a fatal mistake rather than a physiological? It's interesting how defensive some people get when you suggest something like their relative made a foolish mistake by taking their uncertified son on a 230' deep cave dive on air.

FWIW -- I agree with you in principle, but I have also seen the other side of this where families get incredibly defensive after their relatives did something Darwinian. One of my best friends drowned back in 1995 from shallow water blackout after downing a fifth of tequila and trying to freedive to the grate in Ginnie, no one who was close to him wanted to discuss the elephant in the room (alcohol and freediving = badddddd)

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Thinking back over cave diving fatalities; I have long held that we learn very little that we did not already know when we look at individual cases.

Fatalities I can think of involved:

Lack of training for the dive--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Not using a continuous guideline to the surface--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Not using proper gas management procedures--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Not breathing excessively high PO2 gas at depth--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Failure to analyze gas for O2 and CO before we dive it--we already knew this was adding to the risk
Not diving when physically unfit--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Pushing personal limits way beyond experience--we already knew this was adding to the risk

When these fatalities are analyzed we learn nothing new. We do confirm the need to abide by these rules/guidelines, but we really learn nothing new.

Can anyone tell me of any fatalities that occurred due to something other than the above "rules" being broken?

I cannot think of one fatality where there was a sudden and striking realization of a new cause of a cave diving fatality.

 

[clownfishsydney]

Would you and her family have felt the same way if she committed a fatal mistake rather than a physiological? It's interesting how defensive some people get when you suggest something like their relative made a foolish mistake by taking their uncertified son on a 230' deep cave dive on air.

I would have.

In fact, my wife and my family know that if I die in a diving accident, I expect them to support the release of all information about what happened, even if it shows that I stuffed up big time. It is the best way people can learn and perhaps save their lives. I think the reason I have now done over 4,000 dives without any real incident caused by me (eg run out of air or other) is because back in the 1990s there was a dive accident column published every month in an Australian dive magazine that investigated diving accidents. It was done by a very well known diving doctor. Since then I have attempted to document any dive incident/accident I have witnessed or become involved in.

 

[DevonDiver]

I've read an article recently that discussed the legal ramifications of releasing accident information to the agency. In short; it's not covered by any sort of privilege, can be requested by the prosecution or sueing party as evidence, and can be used against you if any legalities follow.

The only person who'd get a copy of my report would be my lawyer.

 

[kensuf]

I would have.

In fact, my wife and my family know that if I die in a diving accident, I expect them to support the release of all information about what happened, even if it shows that I stuffed up big time. It is the best way people can learn and perhaps save their lives. I think the reason I have now done over 4,000 dives without any real incident caused by me (eg run out of air or other) is because back in the 1990s there was a dive accident column published every month in an Australian dive magazine that investigated diving accidents. It was done by a very well known diving doctor. Since then I have attempted to document any dive incident/accident I have witnessed or become involved in.

I knew I loved Australians as a group for a reason.

FWIW, there are still a group of surviving family members that are very vocal about closing a deep cave in Hernando County Florida because they had two relatives that died there a few years ago. To this day they continue to believe that the elder relative who died was an "expert" in deep cave diving (he had no cave training) but they continue to want to blame the cave rather than the fact that he had no business there. The younger relative that died was not even a certified scuba diver, but went with his older relative on a deep air cave dive to 230'. Of course, they choose to blame the cave rather than accept "folly" as a factor.

 

[iain/hsm]

Since you asked what we think.

Watch while your freedom to independently go diving is taken away from you.
Wait while control and self responsibility is taken away from you.
Listen while some lawyer milks you for his vested interest self help money making scheme.

Your one Tee shirt away from a $330 Sherrifs Gold Star badge and back stage pass with this nonsense. All you have to do now is sit up and pay up. That or wait for your respective widow to pay up later with the house………..I guess.

Seeing as you asked what we think.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I cannot think of one fatality where there was a sudden and striking realization of a new cause of a cave diving fatality.

It's not just about finding a "new cause" for a fatality. It's more importantly also a very strong reminder of the importance of those rules we have and the potential consequences of ego and complacency.