Whaling could it start again?

[DA Aquamaster]

Chimps are mean and nasty creatures. They will kill and eat anything. We give them human traits they don't have them naturally. They are CANNIBALS as well as thrill killers.
many animals kill just for the fun of it.

It seems to me that chimps come by human traits very naturally. Like us they use and make tools (which when we discovered this, we changed the definition of "human" to exclude them), they kill for sport, they engage in organized warfare, they are omnivorous and at times they are cannibalistic.

This is an exciting time in anthropology as there is now evidence that at one simultaneous point in time (as late as 12,000 years ago) there were 3 species of human on this planet. However this also has potentially distrubing implications as of those three species, the other two, both of which appear to have survived for a far longer period of time than us, became extinct shortly after our arrival on the scene. The possibile implication of that has an odd similarity to the biblical story of Cain and Able.

In my educated opinion, man seems to possess the flaw of believing in his own dominion and in his divine right to dominate other creatures and even dictate their very right to exist. And disturbingly throughout history man has frequently tried to extend this dominion to other men. Personally, I question the right of man to attempt to manage nature when most barely understand nature and fewer still truly understand themselves.

 

[fgray1]

It seems to me that chimps come by human traits very naturally. Like us they use and make tools (which when we discovered this, we changed the definition of "human" to exclude them), they kill for sport, they engage in organized warfare, they are omnivorous and at times they are cannibalistic.

This is an exciting time in anthropology as there is now evidence that at one simultaneous point in time (as late as 12,000 years ago) there were 3 species of human on this planet. However this also has potentially distrubing implications as of those three species, the other two, both of which appear to have survived for a far longer period of time than us, became extinct shortly after our arrival on the scene. The possibile implication of that has an odd similarity to the biblical story of Cain and Able.

In my educated opinion, man seems to possess the flaw of believing in his own dominion and in his divine right to dominate other creatures and even dictate their very right to exist. And disturbingly throughout history man has frequently tried to extend this dominion to other men. Personally, I question the right of man to attempt to manage nature when most barely understand nature and fewer still truly understand themselves.

Is it that Chimps come by human traits naturally or do human come by Chimp traits naturally.
They missed the human boat, that's why they are chimps.

cdiver2: Haven't you ever seen a cat chase down a mouse and play with it untill it was bored and then kill it and walk away without eating it. Wouldn't you call that killing for pleasure?

 

[cdiver2]

cdiver2: Haven't you ever seen a cat chase down a mouse and play with it untill it was bored and then kill it and walk away without eating it. Wouldn't you call that killing for pleasure?

Yes I have seen this a number of times but you are asuming a couple of things

1/ The cat recognizes the mouse as a life form.
2/ The cat knows it is going to kill/end that life.

I have seen a cat play with a mouse and tire of the game walking away leaving the mouse alive

I have also seen cats play with mouse like toys and leave it only to come back time after time to play with it again. If the intent was to kill it one would think it would wise up to the fact it was not ever going to kill it. Imho it is nothing more than instinct like when they play with a laser light.

Try this experiment with a cat. Dice up piece's of chicken tie a piece of sewing thread to one of the piece's and place in its food bowl. When the cat comes to eat yank the thread so that the piece of chicken comes flying out and watch the cats reaction. If the cat is aware of death nothing should happen after all its a piece of dead meat. It took my cats about a minute to cautiously approach the food again after they had regained there composure.

I have yet to see an animal hang a head on the wall for a trophy or pose for a photo with there kill.

 

[archman]

Chimpanzees kill for sport in the wild. It's been documented by Goodall as one of the key behavioral traits linking us to them. It's primarily confined to larger groups... the same groups that "wage wars" when in close proximity to one another.

Bottlenosed dolphins also appear to do it, specifically on porpoises in western Europe. They chase them down and kill them, but don't eat them. They seem to take their good sweet time doing it, which some researchers have taken as a sign that the dolphins "enjoy" it.

 

[cdiver2]

Chimpanzees kill for sport in the wild. It's been documented by Goodall as one of the key behavioral traits linking us to them. It's primarily confined to larger groups... the same groups that "wage wars" when in close proximity to one another.

Bottlenosed dolphins also appear to do it, specifically on porpoises in western Europe. They chase them down and kill them, but don't eat them. They seem to take their good sweet time doing it, which some researchers have taken as a sign that the dolphins "enjoy" it.

Chimpanzees, I think the words to take note of hear are "when in close proximity to one another" could this be territorial?

Dolphins key words SOME researchers have taken as a SIGN that dolphins enjoy it.

Still nothing to show they understand killing and its implications

 

[archman]

Chimpanzees, I think the words to take note of hear are "when in close proximity to one another" could this be territorial?

They kill other little monkeys for fun. Not chimps. It doesn't have anything to do with overcrowding, it's construed more as a social thing. "Something to do on a Saturday night", that would be a functional analogy.

"Chimp wars" are entirely different. Neighboring groups will fight each other sort of like gangs in urban areas. It's been described more as a social behavior rather than a resource-protective one, which you see in pack hunters like lions or wolves.

Dolphins key words SOME researchers have taken as a SIGN that dolphins enjoy it.
Still nothing to show they understand killing and its implications

Hey, they're all dolphin researchers. That means they're ALL experts on dolphins. If you want to throw around numbers, fewer scientists disagree with the the folks that think it's a nasty behavioral trait, than those that agree or are noncommital. Regarding "signs", that's just another word for "evidence". And it's acquired from direct animal observation. The dolphins identify porpoise, isolate them, and spend long protracted periods harassing and biting them until they die from exhaustion or trauma. It's neither an efficient nor necessary method for killing, in fact it's quite unusual to see an animal display such behavior. One of the most popular explanations forwarded is that dolphins "enjoy it". Dolphins understand death all too well, otherwise they wouldn't practice infanticide. A dead baby frees up a mother for breeding; a maimed one does not. Infanticide is practiced in lots of primate groups too.
Here's a cute essay that goes into some detail about those *nasty* dolphins.
http://www.fishingnj.org/artdolphagress.htm

Dolphins can and are quite mean on occasion. I can personally attest to that.

 

[cdiver2]

They kill other little monkeys for fun. Not chimps. It doesn't have anything to do with overcrowding, it's construed more as a social thing. "Something to do on a Saturday night", that would be a functional analogy.

"Chimp wars" are entirely different. Neighboring groups will fight each other sort of like gangs in urban areas. It's been described more as a social behavior rather than a resource-protective one, which you see in pack hunters like lions or wolves.


Hey, they're all dolphin researchers. That means they're ALL experts on dolphins. If you want to throw around numbers, fewer scientists disagree with the the folks that think it's a nasty behavioral trait, than those that agree or are noncommital. Regarding "signs", that's just another word for "evidence". And it's acquired from direct animal observation. The dolphins identify porpoise, isolate them, and spend long protracted periods harassing and biting them until they die from exhaustion or trauma. It's neither an efficient nor necessary method for killing, in fact it's quite unusual to see an animal display such behavior. One of the most popular explanations forwarded is that dolphins "enjoy it". Dolphins understand death all too well, otherwise they wouldn't practice infanticide. A dead baby frees up a mother for breeding; a maimed one does not. Infanticide is practiced in lots of primate groups too.
Here's a cute essay that goes into some detail about those *nasty* dolphins.
http://www.fishingnj.org/artdolphagress.htm

Dolphins can and are quite mean on occasion. I can personally attest to that.

Do they kill for pleasure or other reasons Yes some species kill to be able to breed with a female, is this for pleasure or to continue there genes.

Dolphins kill another spices of dolphin, why that spices? why not anything that lives? If they are killing for pleasure then what doe's it matter what they kill.
I just think there is more to it than what seems to be the obvious.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Is it that Chimps come by human traits naturally or do human come by Chimp traits naturally.
They missed the human boat, that's why they are chimps.

Left to their own devices primates (non human primates at least) do quite well, do not ruin their natural habit, and generally set around waiting for the next major asteroid impact to wipe them out.

I'd argue that if chimps missed the evolutionary boat, so did we. If there is an upside to having ate from the tree of knowledge, so to speak, it would be that we have the ability to get off this rock and populate the universe and prevent our own otherwise inevitable extinction. But we gave up the ability to go to moon 30 years ago (total cost of the Apollo spread over 10 years = $40 billion). Instead we are dropping a billion a week in Iraq trying to speed the extinction process, untold more billions per week on a consumer society that is polluting it own habitat to the forseeable point of uninhabitability. So in my opinion, we are no better than any of the other primate species sitting around waiting to become extinct until we develop the good sense to actually consider progressing on order to pass on genes, culture, knowledge etc in perpetuity.

I also tend to wonder what would have happened if Whales and Dolphins had developed opposeable thumbs and the ability to make and use tools. I susepct they would have been just as capable as us, but it's hard to tell if they would be any wiser.

 

[fgray1]

Thanks all you guys .
Those that agree and disagree with me have given examples of what my point was.
Animals kill and torture other animals just for the fun of it.

 

[Far_X]

I totally disagree with a reintroduction of whaling. If you want to go catch your whale with your bare hands, and drag it behind you as you swim ashore, then be my guest. If you want to take your boat and some big firing implementation, then you are a problem for me.

Some animals may kill and torture other animals just for the fun of it (I have heard it all before in fox hunting debates) but they are not driving whole species into a world wide extinction. BIG difference. We are supposed to have a social conscience, we are supposed to be aware of cause and effect yet we still go around killing each other when we know it is wrong so what difference is a few dumb whales going to make to those who support whaling? Great argument!!