Weird experience today - ox tox warning

[glbirch]

Bottom line, you would like me as your "buddy", because I would not poop my britches if I had to save your butt.

No, I wouldn't. Wrong attitude.

My opinion.

 

[ams511]

My only recommendation is for you to hit the library and read some books on deep diving. They are very interesting and enlightening. As previous posts mention, diving is not an exact science because of the way gases interact with human beings. Not all human beings react the same to indentical drugs hence why are there so many. Some of us can practice all our lives and not have the resistance to the toxic effects of gas at depths like Hal Watts does. Just as most of us can never have a body like Arnold not matter how hard we work out. Remember oxygen is a drug you need a prescription to buy it and with good reason.

If you want to dive deep that is your business, but for you and your buddy's sake (not to mention your family's) you should do it safely. If you want to dive deep, take a deep dive course and a trimix course. You will probably have a great time and learn alot.

One last thing, I am sure every diver has done something stupid in his or her life and lived to tell the tale. I know I have. Diving can be pretty forgiving that way. However, don't let it lull you into a false sense of security. It is not wise to tempt fate.

 

[SDAnderson]

I understand the phsiology of diving, and respect it.
All evidence to the contrary. The bottom line is that you bent the pPO2 rule and suffered some classic symptoms of CNS OxTox - and you know it. You can respond to this situation with self-righteous indignation or you can learn to accept that you aren't all that special and that sometimes breaking the rules can get you in a heap of trouble. Like many technical divers, I routinely violate the same rule with a gas switch to 100% at 20 feet (1.61 pPO2) but that's a non-working portion of the dive and generally acknowledged as acceptable, given close monitoring and frequent breaks. A dive plan that includes violating 1.6 during the working portion of the dive is bad juju, willfully violating that dive plan is good evidence of a bad brain fart.

But, I also push is a little.
"Little" being subjective, it's open to interpretation. Your dive plan constitutes pushing it a lot in my book. Violating your plan constitutes a lot more than a lot in my book and is one of the reasons to plan dives more conservatively - sometimes things go amiss and if you're already dancing at the edge there may not be anywhere to go but over the cliff.

Bottom line, you would like me as your "buddy"
Ummm, maybe not. Safety is Rule #1, having violated that rule, don't be surprised if Rule #1a is invoked.

I think I am a good technical diver.
Based on the evidence, I have to disagree with this statement, too.

 

[Scubaholic]

Wow, I woke up this morning and looked at the thread, and there is some good substance in several of the replies, once one seperates the wheat from the chaff. Personal insults directed at me aside, I think the thread has lead to some fairly good dialogue.

For those of you who commented that I am either indignant, or unwilling to examine or critisize my own self, I can assure you that I would not have posted were I not willing to step back and reevaluate things. I will try to post up my dives on my server today and post a link, which may add to some additional insight. Yes, I will be doing the tri-mix course this summer.

This is my immediate plan for safer profiles:

1. Stay away from 1.6 altogher in the dive plan. As several have pointed out, everyone's threshold is different. The history of symptoms in the outlined dive profile may suggest my threshold can be met quicker than the mediun, although I am in good physical health. One could analogize that a PPO threshold is akin to altititude sickness during the annual trek to Colorado: Some people get it, some don't. Frequently, those that get hit the worst at 10,000ft are in excellent physical shape.

2. Use my 27cf pony as my deco/safety stop gas. Rather than using 100% at 20fsw, I'll probably settle for 70%, so I can start using it a little deeper, and offgas longer.

As for some of the cracks I made (e.g., lunch bag), that was just tongue-in-cheek. In a forum, it can be tough to know someone's demeanor or intent, given the absense of cadence, inflection or body language. I hope I didn't offend any instructors.

 

[Diver0001]

<snip>

I think the thread has lead to some fairly good dialogue.

<snip>

I'm just gratified that you intend to throttle back.

It's also gratifying to see you say this publicly for the sake of more inexperienced divers who might be lurking.

And just a thought but you mentioned deco-ing out on 70%. Why wouldn't you use 50% instead? It gives you a useful range of depths for contingency, the MOD is less problematic and the hangtime isn't a whole lot longer ......

R..

 

[Mako Mark]

I routinely violate the same rule with a gas switch to 100% at 20 feet (1.61 pPO2)

I guess I feel the need to stick my oar in this at this point. I consider this comment above as a little trite. What the hell is magic about 1.4 or 1.6??. The US navy themselves used 2.0 for many years, and these limits, just like the 60 ft ascent rate and NDL's are subjective. The limit is where acceptable attrition (or risk) becomes unacceptable. :11:

There was a time (NOT SO LONG AGO THAT SOME BOARD MEMBERS HERE DONT REMEMBER) that there were people regularly taking air to close to 450- 480 ft! I know people personally who have done that. I have personally dived to a ppo2 of 2.2, and am still here.

That is not to say we shouldnt express our concerns about what we learned from early deep air pioneers (Shek E, Tom M, Hal W, Brett G, Rob P).

I think scubaholics initial post was a troll, and many experienced scubaboarders fell for it. Either that, or it was an honest question.

We should also make sure that those newer inexperienced and impressionable divers that come across this thread learn the facts. Diving to excess of any limits is not considered safe.

Does this mean that it cant be done??? NO

Accident analysis, (learning from other peoples mistakes) is one of the driving forces in diving safe practices.

Perhaps we will all learn somthing from scubaholic. I would prefer if he learned from others, but at least he had the huevos to make the post, even if it was opening himself up for a flaming.

. and that is all I have to say about it!

 

[pescador775]

Scubaholic, when I was a boy in France we dove on a Greek wreck loaded with amphorae. Technically, taking the jugs was/is illegal but nobody paid any attention to that in post war Europe. The depth on bottom was 50 meters. I dove an air lung but my German friend had only an oxygen rebreather lent to him by one of the team. We did not know about O2 toxicity at the time. Gunnar, my friend (don't ask about the Swedish name, it was an Aryan thing), successfully salvaged several of the pottery jugs and suffered no ill effects. He is still alive today but in poor health due to years of cigarette smoking. What is the point? Please don't listen to this self righteous crowd. A dive to 1.6 atm O2 is not a big deal, it is quite conservative. However, I would not recommend that you go deeper. Nevertheless, the taking of such personal risks should be done in an informed manner. I, myself, suffered a bends hit due to carelessness. I was treated with 3 atm O2 with no particular effect. It didn't cure me and didn't kill me. I eventually got better and still dive.

Scuba divers reflect the current culture. Today, this means a lockstep paranoia and intolerance. Do your own thing, just be aware of the risk calculation. Do not combine a dive of 1.6 atm with heavy exercise and stay away from the pottery.

I acknowledge the post from Cancun. I am aware of all these things but rarely deign to explain such things myself. Thank you.

Thanks to those of you who did not respond in a condescending manner. To those of you who responded with comments like “stop diving nitrox” and “my instructor would kill me for diving this profile,” I would advise that your beloved instructor is likely not qualified to carry my lunch bag for me on a dive trip. While there are many people that will write off an experience like this as a “Darwin Award” candidate, those that dive aggressive profiles will appreciate that I can talk about it.

 

[H2Andy]

Please don't listen to this self righteous crowd. A dive to 1.6 atm O2 is not a big deal, it is quite conservative. However, I would not recommend that you go deeper.

and of course, your recommendation carries more weight
than current PADI, NAUI, SSI, YMCA, NOAA and US NAVY
practices and procedures how?

a bit self-righteous, don't you think?

don't get me wrong. ANYONE can be wrong, and it takes
forward-thinking people to question the rules. but you need
to provide back up, facts, logic, and persuasive data
to show that you are right and the alphabet soup of
agencies above are wrong.

just saying "people used to do it this way back then
and they didn't die so it's ok" doesn't cut it, imho. how about
the others who DID die doing it that way?

just my 2 cents

 

[diverbrian]

Please don't listen to this self righteous crowd. A dive to 1.6 atm O2 is not a big deal, it is quite conservative. However, I would not recommend that you go deeper.

and of course, your recommendation carries more weight
than current PADI, NAUI, SSI, YMCA, NOAA and US NAVY
practices and procedures how?

a bit self-righteous, don't you think?

You didn't mention IANTD or GUE in there. I am sure that TDI/SDI and the other training organizations teach the same limits, but I am not absolutely certain.

The bottom line is many of these limits were established when too many divers went over them. Keep in mind that many of the people that helped set them are no longer with this world (Sheck Exley, Rob Palmer, etc.). I am sure that some of these people are/were similar to to the people that Pescador dives with. It still scares the willies out of me when I am with a group of divers where they non-chalantly discuss that over half of them have been bent. The "non-chalantness" is enough to prevent me from diving with them as it informs me that they probably haven't learned their lessons. Getting bent/toxed out happens once in a while as the science behind this stuff is a blunt hammer, not a sharp knife. To treat it like a game when it happens though....

I don't doubt that Scubaholic's initial post was a mild troll if it was intended that way or not. But it is legitimately thought provoking. For having the guts to admit the issue, I give him a great deal of credit. Scubaholic had to know that the flames were coming when he posted, but it brought up many issues about the "harder, deeper, longer" mentality that are good for many divers to remember.

Thanks Scubaholic!

 

[pipedope]

Scubaholic, when I was a boy in France we dove on a Greek wreck loaded with amphorae. Technically, taking the jugs was/is illegal but nobody paid any attention to that in post war Europe. The depth on bottom was 50 meters. I dove an air lung but my German friend had only an oxygen rebreather lent to him by one of the team. We did not know about O2 toxicity at the time.

I find this more disturbing than the original post.

Anybody here want to guess why a diver survived diving to 50 meters (about 165') on an O2 rebreather?
I can tell you, he wasn't diving the rig properly as an O2 RB. If he truely didn't know about O2 tox then he was likely doing it wrong by accident not by specific intent to increase range. IOW he didn't purge the loop completely first.
With the limited knowledge and probably no training on RB he is lucky to have lived.

Personally I prefer to have my survival based on sound knowledge and solid training rather than dumb luck.

I strongly defend the rights of people to do what they want, AS LONG AS THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

You know, there was a time not so many years ago that doctors would cut up cadavers and then go do surgery without washing their hands. Do you think Drs should continue to do that today?
I don't think so.