Weekend Courses

[TMHeimer]

Hmm. I had no idea of such a difference. Thanks for the education.

 

[scubadiver888]

Compared to nearly 30 years ago and earlier, today's open water diver is really only getting a Resort Course - Plus. In fact, PDIC's "Resort Course" has similar training to other agencies' open water courses. It hasn't been changed since it was first created around 1980, and now, as standards have dropped, full open water programs read like an old resort program. Sometimes NEW does not mean IMPROVED.

Excuse me for being skeptical but I've talked with people who are ACUC, NAUI, SSI, etc. and they all claim their training is far more extensive then everyone else. I have seen some difference but mostly it has been in the instructor and not the REQUIRED course material.

I had a look at the PDIC site to see what is required to be certified but could not find anything posted on the site. I did find the following, "Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)."

This is the same standards used by YScuba, SSI, PADI, IDEA, SDI and PDIC.

If the Open Water certification of other agencies is comparable to PDIC's "Resort Course" then shouldn't the PDIC site claim to "EXCEED the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)"?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Excuse me for being skeptical but I've talked with people who are ACUC, NAUI, SSI, etc. and they all claim their training is far more extensive then everyone else. I have seen some difference but mostly it has been in the instructor and not the REQUIRED course material.

I had a look at the PDIC site to see what is required to be certified but could not find anything posted on the site. I did find the following, "Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)."

This is the same standards used by YScuba, SSI, PADI, IDEA, SDI and PDIC.

If the Open Water certification of other agencies is comparable to PDIC's "Resort Course" then shouldn't the PDIC site claim to "EXCEED the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)"?

PDIC Standards for the Resort & Scuba Review & Update Courses:

The PDIC Scuba Review and Update Course may be used to:
a) Encourage inactive divers regardless of training agency affiliation to get back into diving
b) Upgrade PDIC Apprentice or Junior OW divers who have reached their 15th birthday
c) Crossover divers to PDIC OW from another agency
d) Qualify OW scuba divers for participation in AOW or specialty training
e) Qualifying divers in areas unfamiliar from which they were trained
f) Identitify divers whose lack of diving skills, knowledge, or physical condition precludes safe diving
g) Introduce non-trained and non-certified divers to scuba diving through PDIC's Resort Diver course

Skills to be demonstrated and performed in pool or confined water prior to participation in open water dives:

A. Suiting up
- with buddy
B. Equipment Check
- head to toe
C. Entries & Exits
- giant stride - ladder climb
- forward roll - California crawl
- backward roll - pool/small boat
- seated
- shore/beach
- height
D. Buoyancy check
- neutral eye level in empty tank
E. Snorkel swim full scuba
- blast
- "popping"
F. Resting position
- snorkel clearing and recovery
- cramp removal
- weight system removal and replace
G. Controlled descents (stop hover drill)
H. Equalizing air spaces
I. Moving underwater
- flutter kick
- frog kick
- dolphin kick
- lost fin dolphin kick
J. Breathing properly underwater
K. Gauge Monitoring
- time
- depth
- pressure
- direction
- consumption rate
L. Neutralizing buoyancy
- mechanical BCD inflation/Deflation
- oral BCD inflation/deflation
M. Regulator Clearing, Recovery & Freeflow Control
- hum
- purge
- swish
- breathe through freeflowing reg
- recover two ways: arm sweep, tank valve
N. Mask clearing (3 steps)
- partial flood and clear
- full flood and clear
- mask remove, replace and clear
O. Sharing Air
- additional second stage
- buddy breathing
- sharing air kicking ascent
- buddy breathing kicking ascent
- sharing air BCD asisted ascent
- buddy breathing BCD assisted ascent
P. Emergency ascent
Q. Inflate BCD at surface
- bobbing/oral
- mechanical
R. Remove and replace tank at surface

What is added in OW training for PDIC divers is:

Lifesaving & Rescue
Snorkeling & Skin Diving Skills
Remove and Replace tank underwater
Navigation
Remove and Replace weight system underwater
No mask snorkel & scuba swims
No mask air sharing, buddy breathing and no mask air sharing & buddy breathing ascents
Water treading in full equipment
Donning & Doffing (shallow/deep)
Additional propulsion techniques & turns
Stress testing
No-Deco, Decompression, Dive computer & Altitude planning

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Excuse me for being skeptical but I've talked with people who are ACUC, NAUI, SSI, etc. and they all claim their training is far more extensive then everyone else. I have seen some difference but mostly it has been in the instructor and not the REQUIRED course material.

I had a look at the PDIC site to see what is required to be certified but could not find anything posted on the site. I did find the following, "Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)."

This is the same standards used by YScuba, SSI, PADI, IDEA, SDI and PDIC.

If the Open Water certification of other agencies is comparable to PDIC's "Resort Course" then shouldn't the PDIC site claim to "EXCEED the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC)"?

What you don't understand is that RSTC standards are not really "standards". They are recommendations that member agencies must use as a minimum to retain membership in the RSTC. Where the confusion and many problems come in is that those minimums are barely sufficient for a diver to survive under water. They do not address comfort levels, safety, rescue skills, or even that the person know how to swim. They were set up for one reason. To keep the government off the backs of the industry. A good idea but the problem is that when these "standards" were adopted there were agencies who wanted to keep many of the skills that truly insured a diver would be competent. They were over ridden by ones that wanted to make a lot of money. The quicker the better.

These guidelines ( that's what they really are) are used by some as minimums. Others try to stay way above them and introduce skills and knowledge that produce divers, not underwater tourists. Any certified diver who needs a DM in the water with them should not have an OW card. If the diver wants one that's a different story. But that would be a decision made based on good judgment developed in OW class. Not because they did not get the education they should have.

I teach a 40 hour class. 16 pool, 16 classroom, and 8 hours min on checkouts. Except for a couple of Trace's added skills and a couple differences in classroom content, our courses are not much different. Tonite I'm doing bailout, buddy breathing swim-w &w/o mask, CESA, and horizontal ascents. We will also try to get in an equipment exchange while buddy breathing. This is an OW class. 6th night in pool. If we don't get everything done we'll do another session next week. All sessions are 2-3 hours. We are planning on checkouts in Puerto Rico in January so we'll do a refresher session the week before.

All skills on checkouts will be done hovering, in midwater, horizontal just like they have been done for the last 4 sessions on scuba. I got certed in a fast course. 4 one and one half hour pool sessions. I picked up the required skills fairly easy. But it was not until dive 12 or 13 that I realized I didn't know squat about diving. The book work I went thru in 2 days. All the knowledge reviews, quizzes, etc. I retained very little of it a month later. Cramming all that in 8 hours? The average person has an attention span of 20 minutes before the mind starts to wander. It needs to be broken up and other things injected to hold attention. Yes the student may retain enough to pass the test but how much will they retain a month from now if they do not dive. My boss has not been able to dive since his checkouts in July. But because of the way I taught the class I can quiz him on any material we covered and it's still there. It was not only learned, it was absorbed and retained. How many weekend certified divers can do that?

Finally exceeding the standards of the RSTC is easy. They are by no definition "high" standards.

 

[scubadiver888]

Trace,

Does PDIC actually have a 'resort' course? I had a look at the PDIC website and it lists the "Class and Pool Diver" or the "Open Water Diver". To me, a 'resort' course is more than the "Class and Pool Diver" but less than the "Open Water Diver".

I guess I find it misleading to say that PDIC's 'resort' course is more than other agencies Open Water course if PDIC doesn't have a 'resort' course. It would be more accurate to say that PDIC's Open Water Review course has more than other agencies Open Water Diver course.

Basically, when I think of courses, I expect the higher the level of course, the more time/information given. In other words:

resort course < scuba review < open water

When you said,

PDIC's "Resort Course" has similar training to other agencies' open water courses.

I read this as (let's pick on PADI)

PADI Discover Scuba < PADI Scuba Review < PADI Open Water = PDIC Resort Course < PDIC Scuba Review < PDIC Open Water

This lead me to believe you were saying that most other agencies are three steps below PDIC. Your most recent post makes me realize that PDIC doesn't seem to have a traditional 'resort' course and really the PDIC Open Water course is more like one step above what other agencies call an Open Water course.

For PADI I was not taught the following:

K. Gauge Monitoring
- consumption rate
O. Sharing Air
- buddy breathing
- buddy breathing kicking ascent
- buddy breathing BCD assisted ascent

I was taught about buddy breathing but was told in a real life emergency it tends not to work and is really a non-option. More things tend to go wrong when you attempt buddy breathing. If you and your buddy practice a lot it MIGHT be a viable option but in most cases it does not work out and someone tends to panic. I think this is open for debate but PADI does not see it as a lacking in their training.

I do feel consumption rate is something which should be taught and is not. I did not learn about this until after I was certified and from sources such as ScubaBoard.com.

You list the following as required for Open Water Diver as well:

OW: Remove and Replace tank underwater
OW: Remove and Replace weight system underwater
OW: Snorkeling & Skin Diving Skills
OW: No mask snorkel & scuba swims
OW: No mask air sharing and no mask air sharing ascents
OW: Water treading in full equipment
OW: Donning & Doffing (shallow/deep)
AOW: Navigation
RD: Lifesaving & Rescue
??: Additional propulsion techniques & turns
??: Stress testing
??: No-Deco, Decompression, Dive computer & Altitude planning

For the things I prefixed with OW, I learned as part of my Open Water training. We learned basic navigation in OW but full navigation was not until Advanced Open Water training. RD stands for Rescue Diver. I don't think the material introduced for Rescue Diver should be included in Open Water. This is too much information for someone who is still mastering Open Water.

I'm not sure what 'stress testing' is so I cannot say I learned that. We learned the basics of no-decompression and decompression diving. It was very dumbed down from what I've been learning as a Dive Master. Dive Computer is an optional course for most agencies. This is slowly changing. I dove for 5 years before I used a dive computer.

Altitude Planning is optional or can be part of AOW. There is nothing over 1000 feet in my area; I'd have to drive for a few days to be considered altitude diving.

The big question is was I taught more than PADI requires? I don't have a copy of the Instructor's Manual handy so I cannot be sure.

My other question still stands, why does the PDIC web site indicate it MEETS the high standards of RTSC? If all instructors are REQUIRED to EXCEED the minimal standards of RTSC then why not say so on the web site?

I still believe the quality of instruction is more about the instructor and less about the agency. Passionate instructors will interpret the training material differently than other instructors. If you get a good instructor from agency A you will learn more than from an adequate instructor at agency B.

 

[scubadiver888]

Jim,

I am always searching for a better agency. Better would include, training material, standards, support, etc.. So went Trace led me to believe PDIC is steps above all other agencies. I went to check out the PDIC website and found:

Every course is taught by trained, certified instructors licensed by PDIC and meeting the high standards of the Recreational SCUBA Training Council (RSTC).

I understand that RSTC is really a minimum set of requirements. My OW instructor exceeded these. I was expecting the PDIC website to say it exceeds the RSTC standards.

Basically, if individual instructors are claiming to exceed other agencies and/or the RSTC standards then that instructor exceeds the minimum requirements of other agencies, the RSTC standards and possible their own agency requirements. If the agency makes the claim that it exceeds the RSTC that makes me believe ALL instructors of that agency exceed RSTC standards.

I believe that you and Trace are good instructors regardless of the agency you work with.

I do not believe I can assume an instructor is a good instructor just because they meet the standards of PDIC or NAUI. It is still all about the instructor and not the agency.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

To simplify; When the first RST Council meeting happened they compared OW Course Standards and each Agency had some individual skill standards set lower than the others. They then adopted ALL the lowest Standards as the RSTC Standards, so immediately ALL Agencies do exceed the RSTC Standards in their overall OW Course Standards.

I do not believe there is an Agency that has adopted all the RSTC Minimum Standards as their own Standards. That means a course taught to the RSTC Minimum Standards would not be up to the required OW Course Standards of any of the Member Agencies.

 

[scubadiver888]

So, PDIC should say it exceeds the RSTC standards and really the only statement that holds any weight would be: "exceeds all RSTC standards".