Water as weight rather than lead?

[dweeb]

It's an even sadder day when YOU discourage people from asking basic questions because YOU feel you have to make some point about diving instruction or whatever.

And its sadder still when we live in a world where everything has to drip with syrup, and we can't be honest with our opinions because someone might not feel absolutely wonderful at the end of the day.

Somehow I doubt that Andy will feel nearly as open about asking any further questions due to your HARSH treatment of his ignorance or confusion (which ever it was).

I prefer to grant Andy the dignity of assuming he is a big boy now, a member of the most contentious profession on the planet, and that he can handle a direct and honest characterization of his question without running and hiding under the bed. But let's step back and take a moment to examine this atrocious harshness you speak of. My initial response was:

"This is a joke, right?
Please say it is.
The reasons this is a ridiculous idea are found in PADI OW module 1. At least one knowledge review question deals with this. Every other agency covers it to a greater extent. "

So, what exactly was unspeakably cruel about this? Two or three others posted their suspicions that it was a joke, and one of them argued that he wasn't serious even after Andy claimed otherwise. Are these others also unbelievably sadistic? Then there are all the tongue in cheek responses alluding to Monty Python, etc. They are all implying that it's all a joke to some extent.

Perhaps you take issue with my pointing out where every certified diver should have been exposed to this information. I provided a reference both for why he should know the answer and where he could look it up. Once I could read, my parents bought me an encyclopedia, and when I asked questions whose answers could be found there, they would always respond, "go look it up. We bought you a fine set of reference books." Was this attempt to teach me to fish instead of giving me a fish child abuse? I don't think so.

So, I expressed an apparently common belief here that it was a joke, and I pointed out where every diver should have seen and can currently find the answer. Apparently, this makes me a monster. It goes without saying that EVERY other post I've made in this thread has been a response to someone else taking issue with what I said, including a lot of personal attacks against me.

That is a crime! Instead of encouraging learning you have SQUASHED it.

Or maybe, I've simply encouraged people to check their own readily available sources before asking. I've encouraged self reliance. Remember, I gave the references - any person who followed this thread could, when faced with a question in the future, take a quick look through their OW textbook first, and make sure it's not covered in there, and in the process, might reinforce a few more things they happen upon in their research. What exactly is wrong with people making a reasonable effort to help themselves before asking for help? Would it be a tragedy if someone who didn't understand this basic concept actually went and READ A BOOK before turning to the internet (which everyone knows is a font of perfectly factual wisdom) and possibly having to filter through a bunch of Monty Python jokes to get to the truth?

I have no idea if it was your pride, arrogance, impatience, or stupidity that caused you to attack an honest question by an honest seeker.

None of the above. It was my belief that our entire civilization is being slowly eroded by learned helplessness and hypersensitivity. We need to stop encouraging people from abdicating personal initiative, and from curling up sobbing in the corner because someone looked at them the wrong way. I hardly think Andy is traumatized - all in all, I have to say I'm more pleased with his response than yours and many others. He didn't whine or pout - he stood up, owned his ignorance, defended his competence, and, I think, learned something. I'd like to think that Andy will ultimately come away with a stronger knowledge of the concepts involved, and, he DARN sure will retain it.

You know, the funny thing is, Andy actually strove to place himself in an environment for 4 years where, if he'd displayed the same ignorance, he'd be far more put upon by some law professor than I could ever manage.

All I know is that abusing people who ask sincere questions, by either calling them a "troll" or by trying to publically humiliate them is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

You SERIOUSLY need to examine the record better before you make accusations like that. I NEVER called him a troll.
I disagreed with others' contention that he was not serious, in AGREEMENT with ANDY'S assertions, and said that what they implied he did would be trolling, and that Andy would not do that.

 

[dweeb]

i shudder to think what a new diver reading this thread might think. they'll probably
never ask a question for fear of it being a "dumb question."

Or maybe they'll just do a little homework first.
Call it due diligence.
"Ask an online forum" should NEVER be the first step in learning; ask a question here, two people respond with three different positions. I'm not knocking that - it's the marketplace of ideas, but you have to be a smart shopper, and that means having a basis for judgment before you seek answers in the marketplace.

In the case of your question, yes, I believe that proper preparation for the marketplace would have negated the need for the shopping trip in the first place, figuratively speaking. I also think you're smart enough to realize that.

 

[dweeb]

I would suggest to all who seek to belittle or humiliate others on this board that they reaquaint themselves with the first paragraph of the TOS.

And while they're at it, they might also peruse this thread to where you admonished people to leave personalities out of it, then called me a jerk and other personal slurs.
I guess it must apply to everyone but you. In the words of Mel Brooks "It's good to be the king."

I would also suggest that whoever is perfect among you should cast the first stone. Of course, only the truly arrogant would deign to do so.

I've been perfectly willing to accept criticism from others.
You called me a jerk, then censored me from defending myself, and did I whine about it? No.

I guess it's easy for you because you're holding all the stones.

 

[jhelmuth]

It's an even sadder day when YOU discourage people from asking basic questions because YOU feel you have to make some point about diving instruction or whatever.

Somehow I doubt that Andy will feel nearly as open about asking any further questions due to your HARSH treatment of his ignorance or confusion (which ever it was). That is a crime! Instead of encouraging learning you have SQUASHED it. I have no idea if it was your pride, arrogance, impatience, or stupidity that caused you to attack an honest question by an honest seeker. All I know is that abusing people who ask sincere questions, by either calling them a "troll" or by trying to publically humiliate them is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. It's NOT what the board was designed for. Back off! There is NO possible reasoning that can justify this.

I would suggest to all who seek to belittle or humiliate others on this board that they reaquaint themselves with the first paragraph of the TOS. If a question is beneath you , then just move on. It's a big board and you really could spend time elsewhere rather than stroking your ego by acosting others. I would also suggest that whoever is perfect among you should cast the first stone. Of course, only the truly arrogant would deign to do so.

Dude... you are way off here. I think Andy has shown much more knowledge thatn this "innocent" troll here. It's basic - nothing more or less.

.. and Pete - read what you wrote above. You called him arrogant, impatient, and stupid. (Quote: "I have no idea if it was your pride, arrogance, impatience, or stupidity..."). Yet you also said: "I would suggest to all who seek to belittle or humiliate others on this board that they reaquaint themselves with the first paragraph of the TOS". So what gives?

 

[The Chairman]

Hey Dweeb,

I never mentioned your name or quoted you in my post... are you sure it's about you???

But then again, if the fin fits...

My issue is with ANYONE who would belittle others and stop users from asking questions by their shear meanness. If that applies to you, then by all means take the appropriate action and stop being such a jerk. The board doesn't need any "question police" to keep them thar noobs in line.

You SEROUSLY need to examine yourself better before you cast that first stone bubba.

For those who have been put off by the actions of a "verbal" few in this thread... take heart. We have tons of patient people on this board who would LOVE to answer your questions. We also have a "report" button at the bottom left of each post. If you see shear meanness then please just click that button and let us know why you are reporting it. The person being reported will never know who clicked and we appreciate the chance to make this a nicer place.

 

[The Chairman]

BTW, telling someone that they are acting like a jerk and calling someone a jerk are close but still worlds apart. Without even looking at my previous thread I am sure that I used the former, and not the later. If I did not, then I apologise for being a jerk... won't be the first time, and it surely won't be the last time I have erred on this board or in real life. It just caused me pain to see people so willfully attacked for asking a question. Maybe somebody forgot their meds today???

If you want to attack someone for making an unsafe (or illegal) comment, I could almost understand that. If you take issue with someone presenting fallacious concepts or promoting something that you feel is wrong, I don't have as much of a problem with that.

But attacking someone for asking a question is not cool. It's counterproductive. Now, if you want to REMAIN part of the problem, then please don't change. Keep up your attack dog antics, and we will ignore you more and more. It's not needed here... not even a bit.

BTW, if you haven't got the concept by now, it's questionable that you ever will. For that I am truly sorry.

 

[Diver0001]

And its sadder still when we live in a world where everything has to drip with syrup, and we can't be honest with our opinions because someone might not feel absolutely wonderful at the end of the day.

Dweeb, You were quick to dis him but you actually listen to the question? Do you know *why* Andy was asking this?

As far as I know mod1 doesn't mention submarines.

A wise man listens to the question and gives a measured answer. He doesn't become hysterical because the question was stupid.

Pete -- I think you should back away now and just close the thread.

R..

 

[jhelmuth]

OK - you're just trying to be funny (I guess). But this is an example of what others could have interprited as a troll. Now you expose a defense for that: "hey - I'm just joking". I like your humor, but I don't like the results and what this implies to SB. I wish you had not allowed this to continue on for so long. You should have admitted that you got it long ago (hey - I may have missed it considering how long this thread has gone on).

 

[H2Andy]

ok... jhelmuth, i admit it,

i have no clue what you are talking about

 

[The Chairman]

JHelmuth,

Please check out post #33.