Want to double up tanks, but which ones?

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You say you are neutral with a single 130 almost empty.With filled double 130's you would be around 20 pounds negative at the start of a dive. (Actually a bit more if you add on the weight of an extra reg,bands and a manifold) You have no redundant buoyancy in a wetsuit and no weight to drop. A wing failure would dump you on the bottom and I would not want to try and swim up 20+ pounds.

Double 130's are horribly heavy to carry around

Either the 130's or the 100's would give you a huge amount of gas for recreational dives. Put another way you can get seriously into deco with them,even with a lousy SAC rate. Not a problem as such but something to be aware of.

So I think doubling the 100's would be best. Seriously consider an Aluminum backplate (1 lb negative) and start thinking about a drysuit!

Also you said you wanted redundancy. Doubles are not truly redundant as an isolator failure would leave you SOL. Not likely but possible. I assume you will be getting some training/mentoring in how to use doubles?
Like the others have noted, for the diving you're discussing a set of steel 100s should be fine. As Ian said, double 130s are really heavy for use in quarries like Dutch or Lake Rawlings or Mount Storm (or other shore diving), or climbing onto dive boats wearing (from either the pier or the water), etc.

If you were doing deeper wrecks or caves, where you needed significant amounts of gas in reserve (diving thirds, etc.), then 130s come into their own. But they are a lot of weight to lug around if you don't need to lug it around.

:wink:

FWIW...
 
"Ideally I'd be able to 2x up my 100's and get two NC dives on them and a bit of reserve, but I think it would be cutting it close on that 2nd dive."
I thought that way too. And you're right - you won't have much reserve on the second dive.

But it depends on how you define "reserve"...

How much reserve would you have if you took the same two 100s out as singles, and dove one on each dive?

Assuming you're careful on the first dive, you'll have no more or less 'reserve' with a set of 100s on the second dive than you would had you simply used a single 100 on the second dive.

FWIW...
 
Yo
Also you said you wanted redundancy. Doubles are not truly redundant as an isolator failure would leave you SOL. Not likely but possible. I assume you will be getting some training/mentoring in how to use doubles?

That's not true, it would take leaks on both sides of the isolator (the double or triple o-ring seals) or a leak at a tank o-ring/burst disc AND the isolator seat itself to lose all your gas. Otherwise you could save the gas in one tank. This is absolutely less likely than tank o-ring/burst disc OR regulator failure in both tanks, which would screw you in independent doubles.

Manifolded doubles with two regs and an isolation valve are as redundant as it gets. Whatever safety you theoretically lose with the addition of the isolation valve, you more than make up for with the ability to save the gas in both tanks due to a reg freeflow. Reg failure, specifically freeflow, is FAR more likely than tank o-ring/burst disc or isolator failure.
 
That's not true, it would take leaks on both sides of the isolator (the double or triple o-ring seals)

Manifolded doubles with two regs and an isolation valve are as redundant as it gets.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. If you smack an isolator hard enough I'm sure you can break both sides of it. You might need to be scootering with the dial set all the way to 11 but its possible. For that reason I dont think you will find many divers that would do e.g. solo cave dives in just a set of manifolded doubles. the possibility of a total failure is very remote but the consequences are nasty.

I think a more likely failure point than the isolator though is the diver. In the event of a huge confusion of noise and bubbles behind your head you need to react correctly and you need to react pretty quickly.Get it wrong and you can be breathing water in around a minute or so in a worse case scenario.
Thats one of the reasons I like sidemounts so much. Even if you have no idea what to do about a failure (unlikely as everything is at your side rather than behind your back) all you need do is swim up/out.

For real redundancy I will take sidemount/independants/pony bottle any day over a set of manifolded doubles.
 
We're talking about dives within recreational limits >140ft and due to the fact that most of the dives out there are 95-100ft you inadvertantly end up with 7-9minutes of time to surface after it is all said and done. So 4-6 minutes of 'decompression'.

Diving my 130's in the NC profiles I mention above, I tend to get back on the boat with 1100-1200psi, so clearly I carrying too much air.

Ideally I'd be able to 2x up my 100's and get two NC dives on them and a bit of reserve, but I think it would be cutting it close on that 2nd dive.
I was taught the "alligator eats the big one", so greater than 140 = >140 and less than 140 = < 140.

Diving double 100's in NC is exactly what I do. My real world working SAC runs around .6 to .65 and in my experience I will run out of no deco time before I hit turn pressure on a dive in NC. It works out well and I will normally finish the first dive to 100-120' with 2000-2100 psi in the tank after a dive to the NDL or to somewhere past it with around a 3-5 minute stop. The second dive works equally well - longer but shallower so again at the NDL or with a short deco stop I'll come back aboard with 700 psi or so. 700 psi in a set of HP 100's is still 40 cu ft, so it is a healthy reserve for a recreational dive or short deco dive and is still basically "thirds" for the second dive as you are using about 1400 psi of gas per dive.

If your SAC is a bit higher or your dives bit deeper or longer you can take along a 40 as a stage or even go with an AL80. I recently started using an AL 72 for a buddy bottle and stage bottle for cave diving and it is ideal as it is a bit skinnier and is near neutral when near empty so it does not get as floaty as an AL 80. It would also be a great way to get more gas on a pair of deeper or longer NC dives.

Two sets of doubles take up a lot of space and that ma not work well on a "recreational" NC dive boat. But no one seems to object to a set of doubles and a stage, so it works well to use it on dive one, to keep more gas in the doubles for dive two. If you use a stage in that manner, just take it on the first dive and breathe it down to 200 psi, then switch to back gas to complete the dive. With an AL 80 and 200 psi left over, that would give you basically 70 cu ft. of useable gas on top of the 200 in the double 100's. Just figure your turn and switch pressures for dive number 1 to ensure you end the dive with enough gas to meet your requirements with a 1/3rd reserve on dive two.

Personally, I think it makes mores sense to carry an AL 72 or AL 80 stage on those rare days when I go deeper and need more gas, than it does to carry double 130's all the time. An HP 100 is 33 pounds while an HP 130 is 43 pounds so with the extra gas included, a set of HP 130's will weigh about 24 more pounds than a set of double HP 100's. That can be significant as with double 100's, steel back plate, can light, wing, and a pair of lift bags, a total weight around 120 pounds is realistic and another 24 pounds makes getting up the ladder in 6' seas much harder.

An AL 72 set up as a stage weighs about 32-33 pounds so you end up carrying 8-9 more pounds total, but you can send the stage up separately and not hav to cary it up the ladder and you only have to bring it and carry it on the days you do the deeper and longer dives, not the other 90% that can be done with just a set of HP 100's.

It's a lot like buying a plane. Many pilots make the mistake of buying a 4 or 6 seat aircraft when they only need 1-2 seats 90% of the time. They are almost always better off spending half the money purchasing and flying 2 seat aircraft and then renting a larger plane on those rare occasions when they actually need 4-6 seats. Same thing goes with a set of doubles - buying overly large tanks for the rare "worst case" dive just means you get to haul a lot of extra gas and weight around to no real purpose or advantage on 90% of your dives.
 
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. If you smack an isolator hard enough I'm sure you can break both sides of it. You might need to be scootering with the dial set all the way to 11 but its possible. For that reason I dont think you will find many divers that would do e.g. solo cave dives in just a set of manifolded doubles. the possibility of a total failure is very remote but the consequences are nasty.

I think a more likely failure point than the isolator though is the diver. In the event of a huge confusion of noise and bubbles behind your head you need to react correctly and you need to react pretty quickly.Get it wrong and you can be breathing water in around a minute or so in a worse case scenario.
Thats one of the reasons I like sidemounts so much. Even if you have no idea what to do about a failure (unlikely as everything is at your side rather than behind your back) all you need do is swim up/out.

For real redundancy I will take sidemount/independants/pony bottle any day over a set of manifolded doubles.
The odds of a "smack the isolator" failure are so remote as to be essentially a mythical failure. I am not aware of any fatality ever occurring in the cave community due to this type of failure.

I used to dive independent doubles for a similar reasons to what you state for your sidemount preference (until I figured out it offerred very little real increase in safety that was offset by potentially less reserve gas in an emergeny. Those of us who dove indpendent doubles pretty much always took a ration of crap over it. The irony here is that side mount has made independent doubles cool again.

You are correct that not closing the isolator in the event of a burst disc failure can leave you empty, or at elast without an adequate reserve in short order. If the gas being lost is not coming from one of the second stages, my first action is to isolate. I then shut down the right post and if things still bubble, I open it and shut down the left post, if the leak is still there, it is then obviously a failed burst disc or neck o-ring rather than a first stage leak, and in that case I'd much rather isolate first rather than a minute or so later after messing with each post.

On the other hand, even if you lost most of your gas at max penetration and did not have a full third left to exit, you still have a buddy and his reserve gas. Given that I and my usual buddy have very good sac rates and farther than average penetration, when solo or in a two person team, we will bring along a buddy bottle to reduce or eliminate the need to gas share and to provide the reserve gas a third team member would offer.

So in effect, even if an isolator failure occurred, there are other ways to address the issue and you are still not SOL.
 
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. If you smack an isolator hard enough I'm sure you can break both sides of it. You might need to be scootering with the dial set all the way to 11 but its possible. For that reason I dont think you will find many divers that would do e.g. solo cave dives in just a set of manifolded doubles. the possibility of a total failure is very remote but the consequences are nasty.

Thank you for disagreeing with a respectful tone of writing. I can't comment on sidemount, but I would assume that if something were to hit you a couple of inches from your head hard enough to destroy a brass manifold that's designed to hold 4000PSI +, you'd have much bigger problems than leaking air. More like a fractured skull, unconsciousness, or the total destruction of your regulators, or something like that. IOW the scenario you presented is not anything I can imagine realistically happening.

Isolation manifolds were designed specifically to provide redundancy for accessing the total gas in the relatively likely event of a regulator failure, the overwhelming majority of which are freeflows or leaks. Of course you already know that, and are choosing independent doubles for your own reasons, but I do not think it's reasonable to say that manifolds do not provide redundancy.
 
I sat out a cave dive once due to a leaking manifold.Bubble check showed a significant leak from one side of the isolator. Looking at it closely the leak was caused by the bands being loose allowing one tank to drop lower thus causing a leak. Could easily have caused both sides of the isolator to leak.
I will agree that manifolded doubles are "pretty much" redundant but I dont consider them to be 100% redundant. And I think you would have a hard time finding divers that would solo cave dive because of that. Anyway,this thread is drifting off topic.Solo cave dives are a long way from a first set of doubles.
 
I have a 1973 NACD Cave Manual that compares the relatative merits of permanent single outlet manifolds, temporary yoke manifolds (a "cheater bar" that connect to the yokes on two single tanks), the Benjamin Conversion (basically two K valves drilled, tapped and connected by a non isolation crossbar) and what they describe as the "Ideal Manifold" - a much more rugged permanent manifold variation of the Benjamin Conversion.

They essentially ranked them in this order from least to most desireable.
Independent Doubles
Temporary manifold
Benjamin Conversion
Ideal Manifold, and, drum roll please.
The single outlet permanent manifold.

Despite having only one first stage and a lack of total redundancy, the permanant manifold was felt to be safest based on years of safe use, increased reg maintenence/failure potential with dual regs and the still pending development of an effective "Ideal Manifold". Independent doubles were felt to be least desireable due to the potential for the unused reg to acquire silt, fail and leave the contents of a tank unaccessible and related buddy breathing concerns if that occurred. The middle options were out of favor due to the potential for mechanical failures.

About the same time the Sherwood Selpac manifold came out that would have been most of what was desired in the "ideal manifold", except the out lets were in the center and on the right post rather than both being directly over each tank, but still spelling the doom of the single outlet manifold and ushering in the full acceptance of two fully redundant regulators on a dual outlet manifold.

Many of the rationale and conclusions are no longer valid when you consider the increased advantages of an isolator manifold, but it is interesting that the same basic themes and concerns still pop up - the benefits of totally independent systems versus the potential of mechanical failure in a manifold.

As for solo cave diving, a potential manifold failure is one of your lesser worries, but a much greater gas reserve and a competely separate system, as you would have with a buddy are pretty standard thoughts on the subject. A solo cave diver would be well advised to bring along a buddy bottle effectively doubling his reserve, with maybe even an additional back up light bungeed to the bottle.
 
I was at the quarry today and I asked a lot of the guys with doubles the same question. Got the same type of answers I see here.

It feels that consensus is the 100's are great for 90% of what I do. In fact a few guys said that the 130's on a boat are a bear. If I get into deeper tech and cave, the 130's are a good choice.

For now I'll start in the 100's.

I very much like the idea from Rongoodman about the fill whip.

I do not believe any of my LDS's rent doubles. I think I called on this last year.

For Cwkline, the man you are referring to I believe is Tilos. I've never met him, but his reputation for having a dive shop in the back of his trailer is legendary.

I'm looking at some AL back plates to see if I can't balance my rig a bit better. I'll let you all know what I figure out!

Thanks,

Chris
 

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