Waivers on private boats?

[Rhone Man]

Notwithstanding that the only other lawyer on this thread who put his head above the parapet and tried to talk sense got beaten on for his trouble, I'll throw in my five cents.

- validity of a waiver depends upon the laws of the relevant jurisdiction. In England they are unenforceable for personal injury or death, and are subject to a reasonableness requirement in all other cases (ie. property damage and economic loss). In the British Virgin Islands, they are completely enforceable (and thus de rigeur amongst dive companies).

- it is a common misconception (certainly in all the jurisdictions that I practise in) that a person's liability increases if they receive payment for the service you render. Generally speaking, the duty of care to another person does not vary whether they are paying or not. The law generally requires people to take reasonable care - no more, no less. Now, if someone is paying for a service, they may have collateral claims that may (for example) have longer limitation periods or difference measures of damages (like they may potentially be able claim breaches of implied terms), but generally they owe no higher duty.

- there is a lot of advice having been posted that you should either 'get insurance' or ensure you are covered by insurance. A word of caution. In pretty much any lawsuit you hear of, the claimants make a bee-line for the deepest pockets. If you are a regular joe who has taken some friends out on your boat, unless you happen to be particularly rich, you don't make a very tempting target for the ambulance chasers. However, if you happen to have liability cover, all of a sudden for their purposes you have very deep pockets indeed.

As a last general observation, I take the tips and advice that are posted on this message board about diving with a grain of salt. It would freeze over in hell before I turned to a scuba diving message board for reliable legal advice.

OK, feel free to resume the lawyer bashing now.

 

[Cacia]

I find only taking solo divers makes me feel better.
We make a blood pact first.

 

[Nemrod]

I own a hanger that I rent space out in and on occasion once upon a time and as well I will exercise my A&P, IA privledges, rarely. The first question I ask a person is, "are you a doctor" and if they are I tell them to go elsewhere. The second question I ask is, "are you an airline pilot" assuming they passed the first question and if they answer yes then I charge them double and then the third question I ask them is, "are you a lieyer" and if they answer yes then I sick my dogs on them and close the doors.

I would believe internet advice before I would believe advice given at expense that is usually not been very good from somebody only interested in lining their pockets with the money of other people.

I find it surprising that lawyers act miffed when they find out their professional public perception is lower than that of a roach or even a politician, who do they have to blame but themselves. It is not a value added profession, no tangible products are produced, no lasting value is created, the profession is simply a leech sucking the blood from our freedom to choose.

N

 

[matt_unique]

The problem with the six pack is that in most cases you need to go to a test preparation facility like Sea School or else spend a lot of time studying and retaking the test, but all most test preparation facilities do is train you how to pass the test not necessarly how to be a better operator.

Remember you need 365 eight hour days of operating experience before you can even take the test. That is where you learn to be an operator.

Will you lean something you didn't know, sure, maybe like what does an all around flashing yellow light that flashes one flash per second for three seconds and is off for three seconds mean. Answer a submarine running on the surface at night.
Or what does it mean when a vessel is not under command. Answer, it can't be controlled normally because of some mechanical problem like a failed engine or steering system.

I had been operating boats for about 15 years before getting my 6 pack but I still went to a test preparation facility to learn how to speak and read the Coast Guard language.

Liability wise it might be better to be ignorant than to be knowledgeable when you screw up.

My 2 cents are not so much directed toward Captain but the topic. I started spending time and working on boats with my dad when I was about 6 years old. I decided to get my Captains license in my early 30's. What I knew from my near 30 years experience was about 20% of what was required for the test. I decided to study on my own and test at the local USCG MSO. I did not spend $1000 for a crash course on how to take a test because I was more interested in learning the material. This is not a knock on those who used Sea School, but a very different approach and MUCH more difficult.

I dare say the test forced me to be a better mariner. There was no way to pass without knowing a TON more than I knew before the endeavor. A day of Sea Service Time is defined as 4-24 hours on a vessel (meaning the minimum for a "day" is 4 hours and 24 hours has the same value). There is definitely a high element of memorization (such as lights and Rules of the Road) but you learn a lot more than that.

In terms of the liability I think there is an element to having greater responsibility as a licensed Captain, but at the same time that may work to your advantage. Who is more likely to be negligent, a licensed Captain or Joe boat operator?

When you go to work the companies know how the licensing works and they screen for the necessary skill and experience.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

lawyer remarks deleted

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[captain]

My 2 cents are not so much directed toward Captain but the topic. I started spending time and working on boats with my dad when I was about 6 years old. I decided to get my Captains license in my early 30's. What I knew from my near 30 years experience was about 20% of what was required for the test. I decided to study on my own and test at the local USCG MSO. I did not spend $1000 for a crash course on how to take a test because I was more interested in learning the material. This is not a knock on those who used Sea School, but a very different approach and MUCH more difficult.

I dare say the test forced me to be a better mariner. There was no way to pass without knowing a TON more than I knew before the endeavor. A day of Sea Service Time is defined as 4-24 hours on a vessel (meaning the minimum for a "day" is 4 hours and 24 hours has the same value). There is definitely a high element of memorization (such as lights and Rules of the Road) but you learn a lot more than that.

In terms of the liability I think there is an element to having greater responsibility as a licensed Captain, but at the same time that may work to your advantage. Who is more likely to be negligent, a licensed Captain or Joe boat operator?

When you go to work the companies know how the licensing works and they screen for the necessary skill and experience.

PS Nemrod - don't sugarcoat it - tell us what you really think of lawyers. Ha ha! I pretty much lost faith in the law when someone years ago won a suit after spilling hot coffee on themselves. Lawyers are successful at displacing responsibility for too many things. If I spill coffee on myself, there is no one else to blame but me. I once spilled hot bacon grease on my leg while moving the pan. I could probably have sued the bacon company because they did not have a label that read "hot grease can burn you" or something ridiculous like that....

Matt, I agree that no matter what you will learn something in the process of getting an OUPV and if you operate in an area with a great many other commercial vessels you need to know the regulations, but for most receational boaters who only meet up with other recreational boaters probably 75% of what you learned will never be of any use as in the case of the two examples I gave.

Blow two whisles because because you are overtaking or passing and the recreational operator will probably give you a dirty look because he has no idea why you are blowing at him.

 

[Cacia]

not to mention all the inland water way stuff in the course the ocean vessel captain's never use.

 

[matt_unique]

Matt, I agree that no matter what you will learn something in the process of getting an OUPV and if you operate in an area with a great many other commercial vessels you need to know the regulations, but for most receational boaters who only meet up with other recreational boaters probably 75% of what you learned will never be of any use as in the case of the two examples I gave.

Blow two whisles because because you are overtaking or passing and the recreational operator will probably give you a dirty look because he has no idea why you are blowing at him.

I agree most recreational boaters will seldom be able to utilize Rules of the Road or even courtesy for that matter. Ha ha - the only real rule in Boston Harbor during the summer is don't crash into something and look out for someone crashing into you. During the Winter you hear regular courtesy calls about what side to pass because only commercial boats are running. It's a funny transformation in the summer.

Ha ha - blowing the whistle for crossing signals is more likely to get me the "bird" in most cases.

 

[300bar]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Do keep this post on the enforcebility of waivers on private boats and not on on your opinions of lawyers.You can do that in the Pub.

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[Cacia]

If you are a regular joe who has taken some friends out on your boat, unless you happen to be particularly rich, you don't make a very tempting target for the ambulance chasers

And what is your legal advice if we are *rich*?

that we deserve whatever we get?

Look, 300 bar...I have a boat, I take divers out. If I'm off topic then let's just let people who do not have boats, only opinions post.

That would be much more informative. We, here on Oahu, just had three lawyers dive and one died and they are filing a suit. We should not bring that up. (Private boat) hush, hush.

My advice is if you don't trust your friends, don't take them diving, and if your friend is a lawyer get a waiver.

 

[Skull]

And what is your legal advice if we are *rich*?

that we deserve whatever we get?

Look, 300 bar...I have a boat, I take divers out. If I'm off topic then let's just let people who do not have boats, only opinions post.

That would be much more informative. We, here on Oahu, just had three lawyers dive and one died and they are filing a suit. We should not bring that up. (Private boat) hush, hush.

My advice is if you don't trust your friends, don't take them diving, and if your friend is a lawyer get a waiver.

Or if the attorney dies ...chum the water for Tigers/Bulls ... just a thought!