Vortex 3-18-2012

[GLENFWB]

I hesitate to get in this discussion because others far more qualified then myself are already putting some good information out here.

First, I do not trust anything the media says about diving or time frames. jwp8363 you keep mentioning the few statements that are reported and who knows if they are accurate, but even if they are accurate, you have to consider the facts that are not mentioned. If I was at Vortex unwinding after a day of diving, and someone came up to me and said that a diver was over due. If I saw the panic in a girlfriends eyes I would say the EXACT same thing that Eduardo did, "Don't worry, your boyfriend has plenty of gas with him." After she walked away I would begin aggressively working to find a way to check on the diver. We do not know if that is exactly what happened. The next mention the girlfriend makes is that after another hour she goes to report for the second time her concern. Where was Eduardo? She said in the water preparing to search. Doesn't sound like he just sat around doing nothing after her first report.

How long would it take me to get ready for a dive like Vortex to the back of the cave if I was not preparing to dive? Did he have the proper mix of tanks? Did he have to top tanks off and get his gear ready for this cave dive? Remember, Vortex is a dive that will kill you if not done properly. The fact that he was in the water when she went the second time tells me he acted after her first report. It would take me an hour to get ready for an Intro. dive, much less a dive like this one. What if Eduardo had been diving that day already, what if he had surface interval time yet needed before he could safely attempt a dive to 150 feet? Should he risk his life to try to reach someone that may already be out of air? You said you are a rescue diver. What is one of the basic rules of rescue diving.....don't let your actions cause there to be two victims.

The only reason for this message is your statement that "some of the blame should be taken by the shop." NO it shouldn't. There is no indication that the shop or Eduardo were a part of the divers original dive plan. We have no idea what was "really" going on after the first report was made. If nothing had been done as you suggest, then there is no way Eduardo would have been in the water when he was. I know people are struggling to understand and deal with all this. I know I certainly am. Larry and I took Intro.Cave together in 2009, and I hate this has happened to a nice guy like him. But I sure don't think with what little information we have now, that Eduardo should in anyway be publicaly called out for not acting when the facts to me just don't bear that out. I think he is to be commended for going in there that night and making the effort to find Larry. Kudos to Ed for yet again using his skills to recover a fellow diver.

With me not being a cave diver, maybe I am wrong on this but I am a master scuba diver and I am a little confused on the way things supposedly went so please clarify. Was it not stated in the report that the diver told his gf that he should contact someone if he did not return in 1-1/2 hours which she did. If that is the case, why would she be then told that he was fine and not to worry. I would never dive without a buddy, but understand why some people might. With that in mind, I do know my approximate limitations and if I tell someone to get help if I am not back in the time I set, then the help I send someone to get should take it as an emergency and not tell them that I am fine and not to worry. I think that some of the blame should be taken by the shop for not acting when the girlfriend came in the first time.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

... When I do larger dives, or small caves, I often stage safety bottles in case of emergency. I also take it upon myself to set up safety people for larger dives who know my plan. But if I ever need them, I'm going to seriously consider giving up diving. It's just not something you can take lightly.

....

Excellent point! As a responsible diver, if rescue by others is a foreseeable event, line them up. How you chose to communicate with them is then part of the plan.

 

[manni-yunk]

What comes to mind is problem vs symptom and diminishing returns.

Alert systems might save a life but the problems that kill people tend to be caused by those people... We know what killed almost all people in a cave. We have accident analysis data going back years and years and we train people to know what these are.

An alert system would basically require a rescue team stationed at the surface ready to go. The vast majority of cave dives dont result in a single fatality or even an emergency. On many weekends I think hundreds of hours in a cave go by without issue. It would be a huge burden on diving to require an emergency team for every team in the water.

A better idea would be preparation for self rescue. Buddy bottles are easy to carry. When I do larger dives, or small caves, I often stage safety bottles in case of emergency. I also take it upon myself to set up safety people for larger dives who know my plan. But if I ever need them, I'm going to seriously consider giving up diving. It's just not something you can take lightly.

I do not think we need antennas. I think we need divers to dive safely and I think we have the data we need not do that.

Very good point and good post.

But - keep in mind - I could name plenty of "safety" items that have become common or even required in every day life.........that someone could offer the same type of response.

That being said - I do understand your point and mine is simply that there is a potential technological increase in several aspects of diving and I see improvements over the next 5-15 years.

 

[mike_s]

Well said Glenn...

I hesitate to get in this discussion because others far more qualified then myself are already putting some good information out here. First, I do not trust anything the media says about diving or time frames. jwp8363 you keep mentioning the few statements that are reported and who knows if they are accurate, but even if they are accurate, you have to consider the facts that are not mentioned. If I was at Vortex unwinding after a day of diving, and someone came up to me and said that a diver was over due. If I saw the panic in a girlfriends eyes I would say the EXACT same thing that Eduardo did, "Don't worry, your boyfriend has plenty of gas with him." After she walked away I would begin aggressively working to find a way to check on the diver. We do not know if that is exactly what happened. The next mention the girlfriend makes is that after another hour she goes to report for the second time her concern. Where was Eduardo? She said in the water preparing to search. Doesn't sound like he just sat around doing nothing after her first report.

How long would it take me to get ready for a dive like Vortex to the back of the cave if I was not preparing to dive? Did he have the proper mix of tanks? Did he have to top tanks off and get his gear ready for this cave dive? Remember, Vortex is a dive that will kill you if not done properly. The fact that he was in the water when she went the second time tells me he acted after her first report. It would take me an hour to get ready for an Intro. dive, much less a dive like this one. What if Eduardo had been diving that day already, what if he had surface interval time yet needed before he could safely attempt a dive to 150 feet? Should he risk his life to try to reach someone that may already be out of air? You said you are a rescue diver. What is one of the basic rules of rescue diving.....don't let your actions cause their to be two victims.

The only reason for this message is your statement that "some of the blame should be taken by the shop." NO it shouldn't. There is no indication that the shop or Eduardo were a part of the divers original dive plan. We have no idea what was "really" going on after the first report was made. If nothing had been done as you suggest, then there is no way Eduardo would have been in the water when he was. I know people are struggling to understand and deal with all this. I know I certainly am. Larry and I took Intro.Cave together in 2009, and I hate this has happened to a nice guy like him. But I sure don't think with what little information we have now that Eduardo should in anyway be publicaly called out for not acting when the facts to me just don't bear that out. I think he is to be commended for going in there that night and making the effort to find Larry. Kudos to Ed for yet again using his skills to recover a fellow diver.

 

[ScubaNurse758]

Pardon me if I come across as uncaring or synical or jaded from my past experiences, and I feel horribly for the family that has been left behind with so many unanswered questions,but........ antennas and other multi-million dollar investments that MIGHT save a few divers???? This is the problem with society today: a person makes the decision to dive, they also make the decision to dive into overheard environments, they also make the decision to make dives into overhead environments by themselves.... yet it is someone elses fault that that person was not saved??? Come on, anyone who dives understands that we are going into an environment that the human body is not supposed to survive in, so we know there are huge risks associated with doing so. I love to ride my motorcycle, but if I go careening off the road at 140 mph and kill myself, guess who's fault it is??? MINE!!! Yes, a protective bubble suit or a rail on the road to keep my motorcycle in line may have helped me, but it was my decision to take the risk and I have to live (or not live) with the decision I made. I believe the cheapest, most efficient, and (gasp) most tried and true safety method is to only make dives you are trained for and if you are going to go above your training, be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. I feel sure that if the majority of people who have died while diving (outside of medical reasons) were to be able to send one last message from beyond the grave, it would be to know your limits and not go beyond what you are trained and capable of doing.

Jordan.

 

[lv2dive]

I've been staying out of these threads for the most part but I believe offense is being taken at the wrong thing.... I imagine the reason there is a point being made about the fact that you are not a cave diver is that you don't know what you don't know... I am new cave diver which only means I now know what I don't know.. if that makes any sense. For instance... I know that Ginnie, Peacock, Vortex and JB are by far the exception when it comes to being populated with divers.... I don't know anything about the non-tourist caves except they exist and are far LESS populated/visited. And even so... I've been to Ginnie several times when I was the first in or last out... there were no other divers about. If I had "cut" a line or something to ring an emergency, a couple thousand feet back in Ginnie (well that is pushing it at my level and SCR, but let's just say), at a depth of a hundred feet, someone would have to be literally standing by the entrance with a couple scooters and extra stage bottles to even think about getting to me in time to save me. The issue isn't that there is no market for this line to cut, or that it is expensive, the issue is that even in the MOST VISITED caves, it would not be likely to make a difference! And in the less visited caves (never mind the "secret" ones) there is NO WAY someone could drive there and get to the person "stuck" in the back in time. I mean, maybe it might work at one or two shallow caves but unless the use is institutionalized across the board, it won't be known and therefore won't be effective. And it's hard to express everything I just said via the "interwebs" - I have no idea if I made any sense or not - but I expect that anyone with any cave training would dismiss this idea out of hand bc it just does not pass the smell test.

And BTW the difference with what has been figured with boat diving is that there is always a BOAT and/or other entities that monitor the same frequencies on that radio.

Kate - also not an established cave diver, definitely NOT in a SSoSAHTD*


*secret society of super advanced highly trained divers

OK. Got it. Im not an established cave diver, therefore I could not possibly have input as to an idea that MIGHT save a life one day. I know the cave world is a secret society of super advanced highly trained divers where no one ever dies for anything other than diving out of their training.....but in reality......any technology we could provide that saves a life is worth discussing. The idea of an antenna and beacon signaling device is valid- even if cave divers are so trained that they should never need to use it......
All very good and valid questions - that have been figured out in ocean rescues, mountains, and other recreation industries. This really isnt rocket science....Im sure that engineers could come up with something with low voltage and appropriate frequencies. IF THERE was a real commercial market where a profit could be made after significant R and D costs - it would exist. Since its safety only - well likely never see it.

 

[ianr33]

And what happens when people start diving differently because they think they will get rescued?

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Technological advances that allow for faster warning of emergency still dont help unless people can reach you in time.

A better focus would be on air generation. But that would be even more likely to encourage divers to push the limits. Much simpler just invent a device to measure air pressure in a vessel so cave divers could turn around after using a percentage of their gas... And then to contingency plan with emergency gas.

Many other situations aren't time sensitive. If you run out of gas in your car you can call AAA if you are a member but youll till wait a while. Other devices to help people, like air bags, don't require outside assistance. We don't yet have emergency extraction robots.

Even if we did, what if the diver passes out before hitting the call button? What if they are too far from the line? We really can only be sure of safety if we have the rescue team in the water shadowing the cave divers. But those divers would also need a rescue team, which would need a rescue team... Soon we have a line of divers extending all the way from the EOL to the hospital.... All to prevent a few accidents which we usually already know how to prevent.

A good analogy would be having an ambulance follow drivers around but that ambulance might also get in a wreck so another ambulance should follow them, and so on. Since they might break down we also need mechanics for every car, and a gas truck too.


But it would create a lot of jobs!

 

[Dive-aholic]

Sure did, how about finishing the quote next time. If there wasnt storms EVERYWHERE we were going somewhere else.

Finishing the quote has nothing to do with it. Peacock hasn't been blown out and there are 2 caves there that are regularly used for trimix training. In fact, I've been there a couple times in the past couple months for just that.

 

[TSandM]

Did I miss something? Do we even know if this man was out of gas? There are other things that lead to someone not exiting a cave.