Vortex 3-18-2012

[Grace67]

Does anyone know what Larry's name was on here?

 

[GLENFWB]

Larry and I took Intro. together in 2009. He did finish full cave last year.

 

[darushin]

Thanks GLENFWB for answering a very important question we all had. Doesn't change the reality of the situation, but at least now people can focus on what went wrong rather then questioning whether he was even qualified to be there. Also have you consider letting the authorities know? I think that they weren't sure of his training level.


Daru

 

[Jax]

So, in summary, we have a Full Cave diver diving an advanced cave and got stuck.

Ergo, he was diving beyond his skills and experience? Or was he simply pushing the envelope and got in over his head?

 

[DandyDon]

So, in summary, we have a Full Cave diver diving an advanced cave and got stuck.

Ergo, he was diving beyond his skills and experience? Or was he simply pushing the envelope and got in over his head?

Same thing...??

 

[Jax]

It's a fine line, I think. Cavers, please correct me if I miss the mark.

Diving beyond one's skills / experience is going in not knowing what you face - you really cannot make a sensible choice to push.

Pushing the envelope is pushing forward while knowing and understanding the risk, but deciding the rewards are worth it. Sometimes, you lose.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

The authorities have his cert card. Now, I have said it more than once so listen UP. Full cave does not qualify you for this dive.

Thanks GLENFWB for answering a very important question we all had. Doesn't change the reality of the situation, but at least now people can focus on what went wrong rather then questioning whether he was even qualified to be there. Also have you consider letting the authorities know? I think that they weren't sure of his training level.


Daru

 

[Dive-aholic]

The authorities have his cert card. Now, I have said it more than once so listen UP. Full cave does not qualify you for this dive.

This statement needs some clarification. While there are classes available beyond full cave that would better prepare someone for a dive like this, few cave divers bother to take them. Some because they don't know about them, others because they read comments on the internet by people who claim those specialty classes are a waste of money. Whatever the reason, it's just not that common. With that said, there really is no class that prepares you for a dive like that. Vortex is a unique cave. It's definitely not pristine as evidenced by the large pipe that runs through the passage. It's not very stable. Sand is constantly shifting around, the reason for the pipe. I know experienced cave divers who have gotten stuck in sand slides in there and when they tried to dig out the sand just kept coming. Nothing prepares anyone for something like this. I can't really think of a reason to dive this cave. I've had students ask me if we could do trimix training dives there because it's closer than Peacock and I've refused every time. I can't maintain full control over students in that cave, not with all the variables. I don't know why Larry was in that cave or if he had the experience or skills to be where he was. I'm not sure if anyone knows that because there is no card that will show that.

 

[deepswim]

His name was Lary.
He had all cave-diving certificates.
He was a former marine.

I seen his perparation for a dive in Vortex Saturday in about 11:30am.
He had very nice expencive scooter and oxy tank.
About same time I left Vortex for my lunch.
I returned back about 3pm. Same time they (Vortex) called police.
Also same time Eduardo Taran started his dive into cave.
About 5pm Eduardo indicated to police body location.
Body was (delivered out) on a ground by 10pm Sunday March18,2012.

Totaly it was used 4diving teames to get body up to surface.
More detales you may ask in Vortex.

Personaly I was immpressed by Ed Sorrensen dive (2h30min underwater).
And want to Thanx him, Ed Sorrensen for what he done for this recovery.

Nikita Vatin
Retired USSR rescue-diver. (known around divers by Deepswim n.name)
over 20y uderwater recovery and liftup operations. (bodyes,boats,cars)
Worked alwas in 0viz.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

This statement needs some clarification. While there are classes available beyond full cave that would better prepare someone for a dive like this, few cave divers bother to take them. Some because they don't know about them, others because they read comments on the internet by people who claim those specialty classes are a waste of money. Whatever the reason, it's just not that common. With that said, there really is no class that prepares you for a dive like that. Vortex is a unique cave. It's definitely not pristine as evidenced by the large pipe that runs through the passage. It's not very stable. Sand is constantly shifting around, the reason for the pipe. I know experienced cave divers who have gotten stuck in sand slides in there and when they tried to dig out the sand just kept coming. Nothing prepares anyone for something like this. I can't really think of a reason to dive this cave. I've had students ask me if we could do trimix training dives there because it's closer than Peacock and I've refused every time. I can't maintain full control over students in that cave, not with all the variables. I don't know why Larry was in that cave or if he had the experience or skills to be where he was. I'm not sure if anyone knows that because there is no card that will show that.

Which goes with my point. Larry had Full Cave less than a year as I was told. This cave is at best dangerous. You need to be doing advanced dives a long time before making that dive into small and unstable stuff. Its just like full cave doesnt qualify you to dive to the end of the line at JB right off the bat. You have to gain experience. Problems 2000ft in the cave is not the same as at 5000ft. You need time to work through some problems and gain the experience. In Vortex, if you are going to dive super tight back of the cave stuff, you better know how to do it in shallow stuff befre you bail off in a small tiny passage at 160ft plus deep. Time is a lot more critical at that depth. Unfortunately we will never know why Lary went there. What I can tell you is when the call come to Stacy, she rushed to the water where Edd and I just surfaced with a few others. We both had the same reaction to people looking for him. That was disbelief that Larry would be killed at Vortex. That any good cave diver would be killed there actually, because we dont go there.