Voluntary Environmentally Sustainable Diving Standards

[KrisB]

i wonder if the spearfisherman that was killed on the big Island in april by boat running him over would think im funny had he survived. I wonder if his wife that had to return home alone thinks im funny. he didnt have a dive flag with him either. its sad that nothing has been learned from this.

A spearfisherman without a flag/float for his catch? Sounds to me like he didn't want to come home... either a boat or a tiger... either way, he was asking for trouble.

push for some form of mandatory boat operator safety course.

I seem to remember hearing you espousing some bunk on how mandatory courses / licensing were unconstitutional and you were fighting that fight over having to have a drivers license...

that would be the logical course but the dive community on the islands have shown no intrest in that which would ultimately make the islands safer place to dive. how funny is that. for now im thru with the subject." beam me up scotty there is no intelligent life down here."

Just because we reason differently does not equate to lack of intelligence.

We each have a fundamentally different premise. This could be because of dive site differences, I don't know.

My conclusion is thus: for most of the sites I dive, there is no reasonable or substantial safety gain found by towing the flag. This conclusion is drawn from several points -- the most basic being that the sites that I'm diving only find boats over them in situations where the boat is an driven by an unknowledgeable driver that wouldn't know a dive flag's significance either. This is because they are well-known sites that find dozens of divers on them every day.

This is not to say I won't tow a float in some cases -- in fact, there are several sites that are far enough off-shore (or uncommon to dive) that there is a float or at least a flag on the surface above us.

Of course, as an instructor, there's always a sausage clipped off to my BC that has ~18' of line on it. If there is an immediate need to surface apart from my flag, that puppy gets inflated.

 

[Black_3000psi]

he may have been asking for it but that is a very callused way speaking on it.

if you look back at the thread in question you will find that you have the facts backwards. thats ok no harm no foul.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

I'm not sure how something as "peaceful" as the "Diver's Pledge" turned into the "Dive Flag" war, or the "Glove / No-Glove" skirmish; guys, "where's the love"?

I think strongly held beliefs produce strong feelings (on ANY topic), but as with most things related to diving, there are problems with making absolute statements... it often means that you'll be absolutely WRONG about half the time

1.) The point that gloves should not be used on most dives is intended to protect the reef and sea creatures, and that is a great thing, but is not a universally correct policy. There ARE some good exceptions, and a competent diver will not touch the reef or sea life, regardless of gloved or "naked" hands.

2.) Dive flags are a good idea for the majority of dives. But not all. Towing the flag is the proper thing to do on many dives, but not all. Each dive site and dive plan will dictate whether it safer to tow, tie off, or not use a flag at all. Dive flags do provide protection, but not nearly as much as any of us would like, and not just because of careless or ignorant boat operators. A large problem is the relative LOW visibility of the average dive flag in any but the most perfect sea and lighting conditions. Wave action, glare on the water, and the generally poor design of most dive flags (too low to the water and too small) can render a flag nearly invisible until a boat is right on top of it.

Do I use a dive flag? Yes, 90% of the time. And I typically dive in areas with near-zero boat traffic. About 1/2 the time I tow it, the other 1/2 tie it off. Depends on the dive plan. But when I dive in an area with heavy boat traffic (very rare for me these days)? No flag. I consider myself to be in an overhead environment. Surfacing is not an option.

Best wishes.

 

[Black_3000psi]

yep if you look back it goes back to some smart alick remarks because i said i dive with my goves on. and as sure as life brings death that will never change. and i also stated that I would not support the paper because it (in its wording ) promotes unsafe diving practice. I make no claims to being a saint. but when Im leading a dive from shore I am towing that flag. it dont matter how far or near to shore the dive is the float goes where I go. if something goes wrong it may become very useful. like any other tool of any trade its only useful if you have it when you need it. personally I would rather tow it a thousand times and not need it than to not tow it once and wish I had. I make that choice because I have no desire to feel the weight of wondering if im responsible for what happened to someone else, sorry but that closet is already full.for me diving is one of the few things that is untainted by my past. it created a whole new life for me and I perserve that feeling everyday by doing my best to do things the right way to take people diving and share that world with them. though it looks like i just want to show them the best time diving their safety is always in the forefront of my mind from the time we leave the boat or hit the water from shore til the dive ends. for me thats just the way it is. one thing you will learn about us L.A. boys. we may change our behavior but our principles will never change.

 

[JGibbs]

Just a hint, but people might take you more seriously if you learn how to use proper capitalization, punctuation, and line breaks.

Right now its just a jumbled mess of words.

 

[cuddlefish]

7. Secure dive flags to the sandy bottom using weights or other anchoring
device or tie off to non-living surfaces.

My interpretation of this is that they are not suggesting you secure your dive flag. They are suggesting that IF you do secure your dive flag, please do so in a responsible way...sandy bottom, etc. Perhaps it should read, " When securing dive flags....." I just don't think they are assuming you are always in a situation that you would be securing your flag to the bottom. It's like saying, "anchor your dive boat in a sandy area...". Of course every dive boat will not be anchoring...maybe they are drifting, maybe they are using a mooring. But IF you anchor, do it responsibly.

 

[Black_3000psi]

just a hint there s no body here i feel the need to impress im not riting a proper english paper. in fact im wasting my time.

thats funny I dont see a single "if" in number 7. meaning
" if you are going to secure your....."

7. Secure dive flags to the sandy bottom using weights or other anchoring device or tie off to non-living surfaces.

 

[KrisB]

just a hint there s no body here i feel the need to impress im not riting a proper english paper. in fact im wasting my time.

thats funny I dont see a single "if" in number 7. meaning
" if you are going to secure your....."

7. Secure dive flags to the sandy bottom using weights or other anchoring device or tie off to non-living surfaces.

And trying to read the posts that don't follow normal rules of style wastes everybody else's.

The point that was being made is that if you take the time to properly format your post, others will take your views more seriously. You are the one complaining that nobody wants to jump on your dive-flag-awareness bandwagon. You are the one thinking there should be more unity in the HI dive community. If you care about either of these topics, you'd do what you could to better communicate your points.

I think the people that have pointed this out in the past have been pretty kind in their manners... we don't need you to impress us -- we just want to understand what you're saying without having to curse your writing style (and get a bad feeling towards your post to start with) so we can carry on an intelligent conversation.

 

[Black_3000psi]

Just a hint, but people might take you more seriously if you learn how to use proper capitalization, punctuation, and line breaks.

Right now its just a jumbled mess of words.

well since this is now an english class allow me to give a few factual hints.

first of all just a hint is a statements therefore it is a complete sentence. strike one.

you never start a new sentence with but. strike two.

you finish with a whole new paragraph "right now its just a jumble of words." new paragraphs are started when the subject matter changes. you were commenting on the same subject matter therefore starting a new paragraph is the wrong thing to do here. strike three, your out. Thanks for playing the game. now I will show you how it should have read.

THE WRONG WAY.
Just a hint, but people might take you more seriously if you learn how to use proper capitalization, punctuation, and line breaks.

Right now its just a jumbled mess of words.


THE RIGHT WAY.
Just a hint: People might take you a bit more seriously if you learned to use proper capitalization, punctuation, and line breaks. Right now its just a jumbled mess of words.

if you are going to take a shot at someone you might want to make sure you know what you are talking about. for anyone that has doubt you can always let your kid take it to school and have the teacher correct it. Now I could be wrong, but me being wrong twice in the same year is unheard of. and when I am wrong I am the first to admit it, but thats just how we are raised where I come from. they do things a bit differently here. Reminds me of Krisb taking a shot at me last night only to find out he had his facts backwards. where I come from a real man would have readily admitted that he was wrong, obviously I expect too much from some people.

class dismissed.

p.s. if you are penning any important papers I would be more than happy to proof read and edit for a fee.

 

[KrisB]

THE RIGHT WAY.
Just a hint: People might take you a bit more seriously if you learned to use proper capitalization, punctuation, and line breaks. Right now its just a jumbled mess of words.

You have several errors remaining.

The right way:
Just a hint: people might take you a bit more seriously if you learned to use proper capitalisation, punctuation and line breaks. Right now, it's just a jumbled mess of words.

n.b. boldfaced points.

Reminds me of Krisb taking a shot at me last night only to find out he had his facts backwards. where I come from a real man would have readily admitted that he was wrong,

I just didn't feel like going back and finding the post where you were talking about that. It probably got deleted or you edited it after it was read by others.