captain
Contributor
Until you ditch the BC and all the dangly things and dive with just mask, fins, tank and regulator you won't understand.
Captain
Captain
Vintage out of the closet
- Thread starter Nemrod
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jnallen:
Aloha JNALLEN
Aquiring the vintage gear, can be as fun as the diving. I have met some great people, who donated their old gear to me so that it could still be used and cared for. However I also enjoy the hunt on E-bay for vintage gear. Some of the vintage gear I rebuild myself, some I ship out, for a complete restoration.
I dive the gear for the freedom of movement I get from the minimal gear, and the joy of using older machinery, I am a bit of a History buff, and it all comes together for me.
Turtleguy
A diveable vintage double hose reg will run $300-$400 and is quite a bit more costly than a modern reg with similar capability.
But a vintage single hose reg in excellent diveable condition can often be had for under $25. They are still in that state of grace of being junk rather than collectors items. Stock up now, they will eventually start becoming collectable.
Horse collar BC's in excelelnt conditon are also quite affordable - usually under $30. What gets exepnsive sometimes are the smaller items. A banjo fitting to allow the use of an SPG on your double hose reg for example will bring upwards of $100 on E-bay.
Vintage diving is in many ways the ultimate in minimalism and one of the things I enjoy most is the minimal equipment and the speed and maneuverability in the water that comes with that.
But a vintage single hose reg in excellent diveable condition can often be had for under $25. They are still in that state of grace of being junk rather than collectors items. Stock up now, they will eventually start becoming collectable.
Horse collar BC's in excelelnt conditon are also quite affordable - usually under $30. What gets exepnsive sometimes are the smaller items. A banjo fitting to allow the use of an SPG on your double hose reg for example will bring upwards of $100 on E-bay.
Vintage diving is in many ways the ultimate in minimalism and one of the things I enjoy most is the minimal equipment and the speed and maneuverability in the water that comes with that.
OP
Jnallen, thanks for the question. In my case the vintage gear is MINE. Some of it is still useable. I don't have that much because like all semi-active divers I have retired, sold, traded, lost, worn out much gear and of course purchased whatever the "In" thing was at that time of replacement. Well, for example, I still have two steel 72 tanks, Calypso J reg and bunches of other odds and ends to complete a vintage dive set. I did not have any vintage fins that were useable so I bought a new set of UDT "vintage" Duckfeet from a well known source on this board. They were not that expensive and certainly are authentic. Plus as several folks have mentioned, the search for old workable gear might be fun and rewarding.
OK, as to diving vintage it is a different experince without all the hoses and computers etc. I am not intending to sound superior here but I suggest that any modern or semi modern trained diver find an "old time" trained diver to mentor them on the use of vintage gear and vintage diving. There is an artical in Dive Training recently about how training has changed over the years and I cannot emphasize how really DIFFERENT that training then was enough. Much of the class room sessions of which they were extensive delt with gas laws, ocean currents and ocean environment, navy tables, air consumption calculations, mechanics of the gear, we spent much time on how to weight or how to at least deal with boyuancy changes since there were NO BCs. Much time was spent on buddy breathing discussions as well and self rescue. In the pool there was a swim required before each class, then in the class we practiced over and over, doff and don, the instructor would take all the gear and also throw it in the pool including weight belts and masks and fins--the student would then have to dive in and don the gear then surface and swim about 12 laps and then remove the gear and surface. We had to buddy breath blind for several underwater laps and also circuit breathing from tanks stationed on the bottom with the instructor harrasing us by flooding our mask. These drills were the gist of every class. Self rescue took up a bunch of time also in the class. There was no BC but some had Mae West or other surface rescue floats usually with a CO2 cartridge. We practiced with these a bunch. Sooooo, what I am saying is that we were trained to dive safely without the equipment that is now considered mandatory. I am sure there are plenty of people around who can mentor a younger diver in proper use of vintage gear/diving safely. I am not sure that accident rates really are any lower now than back then--maybe I am wrong but clearly caution should be exercised when diving vintage that you have some training with it. You know, even now, if I have just a swim suit or thin neoprene suit I might not need but a few lbs on my belt and may well complete an entire dive without ever touching the inflator on my BC. I think the BC has become a crutch for current over weighting practices ingrained from a certain well known agency. My computer is a navy table clipped to my belt--no decompression limits. If you time your dive and have calculated air consumption and monitor depth and set your J reserve why do you need an SPG for a no decompression dive? LOL---Take care--good luck--have fun. N
OK, as to diving vintage it is a different experince without all the hoses and computers etc. I am not intending to sound superior here but I suggest that any modern or semi modern trained diver find an "old time" trained diver to mentor them on the use of vintage gear and vintage diving. There is an artical in Dive Training recently about how training has changed over the years and I cannot emphasize how really DIFFERENT that training then was enough. Much of the class room sessions of which they were extensive delt with gas laws, ocean currents and ocean environment, navy tables, air consumption calculations, mechanics of the gear, we spent much time on how to weight or how to at least deal with boyuancy changes since there were NO BCs. Much time was spent on buddy breathing discussions as well and self rescue. In the pool there was a swim required before each class, then in the class we practiced over and over, doff and don, the instructor would take all the gear and also throw it in the pool including weight belts and masks and fins--the student would then have to dive in and don the gear then surface and swim about 12 laps and then remove the gear and surface. We had to buddy breath blind for several underwater laps and also circuit breathing from tanks stationed on the bottom with the instructor harrasing us by flooding our mask. These drills were the gist of every class. Self rescue took up a bunch of time also in the class. There was no BC but some had Mae West or other surface rescue floats usually with a CO2 cartridge. We practiced with these a bunch. Sooooo, what I am saying is that we were trained to dive safely without the equipment that is now considered mandatory. I am sure there are plenty of people around who can mentor a younger diver in proper use of vintage gear/diving safely. I am not sure that accident rates really are any lower now than back then--maybe I am wrong but clearly caution should be exercised when diving vintage that you have some training with it. You know, even now, if I have just a swim suit or thin neoprene suit I might not need but a few lbs on my belt and may well complete an entire dive without ever touching the inflator on my BC. I think the BC has become a crutch for current over weighting practices ingrained from a certain well known agency. My computer is a navy table clipped to my belt--no decompression limits. If you time your dive and have calculated air consumption and monitor depth and set your J reserve why do you need an SPG for a no decompression dive? LOL---Take care--good luck--have fun. N
jamiep3
Contributor
Just to add a few thoughts...
I first learned to dive in the late 70's, Calypso J Regulator, hard pack, Dacor Vest with a CO2 inflator that I don't think I ever put air in (mostly a life jacket for emergencies).
I was away from diving from the mid 80's to the late 90's, when I came back I got major equipment shock. While I have accustomed myself to modern equipment and use it most of the time, I have to say for pure underwater freedom nothing beats a dive I did last summer in a lake in Vermont. Steel 72, Hard pack, Aquamaster regulator. Short dive, needed no wetsuit, so I needed no weights.
Just like flying.
I first learned to dive in the late 70's, Calypso J Regulator, hard pack, Dacor Vest with a CO2 inflator that I don't think I ever put air in (mostly a life jacket for emergencies).
I was away from diving from the mid 80's to the late 90's, when I came back I got major equipment shock. While I have accustomed myself to modern equipment and use it most of the time, I have to say for pure underwater freedom nothing beats a dive I did last summer in a lake in Vermont. Steel 72, Hard pack, Aquamaster regulator. Short dive, needed no wetsuit, so I needed no weights.
Just like flying.
I agree with Nemrod on the differences in training. The accident rate was I think somewhat higher, but nowhere near as high as it would be now if the same equipment and training combination were used as the average recreational diver's skills today are grossly deficient compared to the average receational diver 30 years ago.
Before the dive industry became really big business with the need to make diving more accessible to a vastly larger number of potenial divers, divers really needed superb water skills and left an OW class with a great deal of knowledge and practice. You needed to be in good physical shape and you needed to be very comfortable and proficient in the water or you were not going to get certified.
I also agree many pieces of modern equipment that are now considered mandatory are indeed crutches for poor skills or poor physical condition. Also, many newly minted divers are sorley lacking in basic skills. For example many new divers have no clue how to properly weight themselves, and more importantly lack a thorough understanding of what the logic and goal behind it is.
Dive training recently published some numbers on weight estimation. I compared those estimates to how much weight was used by every experienced and proficent diver I knew and the estimates were in all cases several pounds heavy and no consideration was given to the tank used. The goal behind the formula used seems to be to strap enough lead on a diver to get them underwater (making the instructors job easier) and let the BC carry the extra weight, despite the fact that this makes it much more difficult for the diver to maintain preceise bouyancy throughout the dive. Problems with uncomfortable divers unconciously kicking to maintain stability or stay on the surface, or improperly deflating their BC are often addressed with more weight rather than by attending to and correcting the underlying problem. Unfortunately, most dive students today are taught to write down whatever God awful amount of excessive weight is "required" in their log book so they won't forget and will continue to dive overweighted in the future.
In dive classes in the past, a weight check was done in full dive gear at the OW site to ensure the amount of weight used was correct and not excessive and every diver knew exactly how to do it. Compare that with the number of threads on SB from new divers asking weight related questions. Obviously something is missing in training today.
But the point is if average divers today dove vintage equipment with no BC (or even a manual inflate horse collar BC) and used a watch or J valve rather than an SPG, they'd be dying in droves as the basic skills needed like proper weighting, air consumption estimation and planning, proficient swimming ability and physical condition, etc are usually deficent.
Before the dive industry became really big business with the need to make diving more accessible to a vastly larger number of potenial divers, divers really needed superb water skills and left an OW class with a great deal of knowledge and practice. You needed to be in good physical shape and you needed to be very comfortable and proficient in the water or you were not going to get certified.
I also agree many pieces of modern equipment that are now considered mandatory are indeed crutches for poor skills or poor physical condition. Also, many newly minted divers are sorley lacking in basic skills. For example many new divers have no clue how to properly weight themselves, and more importantly lack a thorough understanding of what the logic and goal behind it is.
Dive training recently published some numbers on weight estimation. I compared those estimates to how much weight was used by every experienced and proficent diver I knew and the estimates were in all cases several pounds heavy and no consideration was given to the tank used. The goal behind the formula used seems to be to strap enough lead on a diver to get them underwater (making the instructors job easier) and let the BC carry the extra weight, despite the fact that this makes it much more difficult for the diver to maintain preceise bouyancy throughout the dive. Problems with uncomfortable divers unconciously kicking to maintain stability or stay on the surface, or improperly deflating their BC are often addressed with more weight rather than by attending to and correcting the underlying problem. Unfortunately, most dive students today are taught to write down whatever God awful amount of excessive weight is "required" in their log book so they won't forget and will continue to dive overweighted in the future.
In dive classes in the past, a weight check was done in full dive gear at the OW site to ensure the amount of weight used was correct and not excessive and every diver knew exactly how to do it. Compare that with the number of threads on SB from new divers asking weight related questions. Obviously something is missing in training today.
But the point is if average divers today dove vintage equipment with no BC (or even a manual inflate horse collar BC) and used a watch or J valve rather than an SPG, they'd be dying in droves as the basic skills needed like proper weighting, air consumption estimation and planning, proficient swimming ability and physical condition, etc are usually deficent.
Mike Matthews
Contributor
Hi Everyone,
The question of diving vintage is interesting and a timely subject. I learned to Dive in 1980 and immediately purchased my gear upon basic certification. A Conshelf 14, Backpack, US Divers Horse Collar, Jet Fins, etc, etc. I still use the same gear and plan to replace it with matching equipment when needed. There are several manufactures of Horse Collar BCs and basic no frills or B.S. gear.
I do not want to dive wearing the bat-belt full of gadgets and junk. I prefer the kiss method, maintain my physical condition and skills, and stay highly familiar with my chosen gear. I recently had someone tell me their instructor did not fully explain or test them on Buddy Breathing since everyone has an Octo rig. Sorry folks, I dont. If you need a breath from my rig youll need to buddy breath.
The question of diving vintage is interesting and a timely subject. I learned to Dive in 1980 and immediately purchased my gear upon basic certification. A Conshelf 14, Backpack, US Divers Horse Collar, Jet Fins, etc, etc. I still use the same gear and plan to replace it with matching equipment when needed. There are several manufactures of Horse Collar BCs and basic no frills or B.S. gear.
I do not want to dive wearing the bat-belt full of gadgets and junk. I prefer the kiss method, maintain my physical condition and skills, and stay highly familiar with my chosen gear. I recently had someone tell me their instructor did not fully explain or test them on Buddy Breathing since everyone has an Octo rig. Sorry folks, I dont. If you need a breath from my rig youll need to buddy breath.
Turtleguy:
Mike Matthews
Contributor
I have never purchased anything on Ebay. I understand there is some risk but what has been your folks experience. They always seem to have some dive goody I want to buy.
Mike Matthews:
scubapro50
Contributor
Half of the equipment I own could be called "vintage". Gear from the 70's or 80's if well maintained can be used without any problems. If you have your diving rig configured to meet todays standards (single hose reg. with SMG, BC, octopus, ect.) the dive operator most of the time won't even notice. The problem comes when you show up wearing that doublehose and the divemaster starts going thru the worse case scenarios that could cause you trouble or give him problems because it causes him to change his routine. Most boat captains don't won't let you dive because they don't know your experience or capabilities with the stuff. That's why it's really important to ask about it before you get on board to save time and money for a wasted trip. I have in the past brought two sets of gear to the boat. Talking to divemaster explaining that you plan to make the 1st dive with the new gear (1st dives are normanly the deep and longer dive) and would like to use the older stuff for the 2nd dive of the day in shallow water. A lot of time they say OK . But you never know .... most dive operators now insist you have a second air sourse with you just to get into the water. ( see thread "new law in Cayman?" www.scubaboard.com/t72457-.html )
OP
This has been a good discussion, yeah, I have thought to take both modern and vintage gear on the boat and ask if I could use the vintage stuff on the second dive. If not I can use the modern plastic junk.
Vintage is not about being cheap, I can afford reasonably any gear I want and have, I just like diving the way I was trained, don't most people?
Maybe now that some of the scuba organizations are getting accustomed to the idea of Solo Certs (as an example only) then maybe it is time for a Vintage Cert course. That way older divers could refresh their skills and new divers could experience scuba training the way it used to be. Of course I already have a Vintage Cert--lol---NAUI 1968--yikes!
Yeah, this using a BC with folks weighted down is like crazy. I have seen women and guys no bigger than a twig weighted with enough lead to sink my kayak and then when under water the BC is like 2/3 full of air!!!!!!!! Not right at all.
Maybe some time as people discover vintage friendly operators they could list them in some sort of a Sticky note under this heading--is that a good idea?
Just to be clear, I am not anti-modrn equipment. I am in the process of a serious upgrade now for both wife and myself for the next season. I also think the closest to a vintage experience you can get with modern gear is the backplate wing setup with serious doses of KISS applied. Has anyone else noticed that old is more modern than new. I was looking at some pictures dated 1922 of some young ladys grouped around a "new" outboard motor! The women appeared to have hair styles and clothing that would not look unusual today. Zip forward to say the 50s and 60s and see Mike Nelson in styles that are more modern than now and ever see that movie, "Catch Me if You Can" ? The cloths and cars and everything just looks modern--maybe I am a nut but I like old ways and stuff because it is modern, simple and fresh. N
Vintage is not about being cheap, I can afford reasonably any gear I want and have, I just like diving the way I was trained, don't most people?
Maybe now that some of the scuba organizations are getting accustomed to the idea of Solo Certs (as an example only) then maybe it is time for a Vintage Cert course. That way older divers could refresh their skills and new divers could experience scuba training the way it used to be. Of course I already have a Vintage Cert--lol---NAUI 1968--yikes!
Yeah, this using a BC with folks weighted down is like crazy. I have seen women and guys no bigger than a twig weighted with enough lead to sink my kayak and then when under water the BC is like 2/3 full of air!!!!!!!! Not right at all.
Maybe some time as people discover vintage friendly operators they could list them in some sort of a Sticky note under this heading--is that a good idea?
Just to be clear, I am not anti-modrn equipment. I am in the process of a serious upgrade now for both wife and myself for the next season. I also think the closest to a vintage experience you can get with modern gear is the backplate wing setup with serious doses of KISS applied. Has anyone else noticed that old is more modern than new. I was looking at some pictures dated 1922 of some young ladys grouped around a "new" outboard motor! The women appeared to have hair styles and clothing that would not look unusual today. Zip forward to say the 50s and 60s and see Mike Nelson in styles that are more modern than now and ever see that movie, "Catch Me if You Can" ? The cloths and cars and everything just looks modern--maybe I am a nut but I like old ways and stuff because it is modern, simple and fresh. N
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