Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[rjack321]

If kneeling is done on purpose in order to save time and make sure students focus on the actual skills being taught, I don't necessarily see an issue with it.This would be like insisting that a renowned math professor and his students use neat handwriting and perfect punctuation on a whiteboard and in the notes during a lecture. You can do it, but you won't cover nearly as much material in the same amount of time.

If they were kneeling on live coral or a delicate wooden wreck, that would be a different story.

Why would you think that doing a (any) skill while neutrally buoyant and in reasonable trim takes longer than semi-vertical and on your knees?

 

[Scuba-74]

Why would you think that doing a (any) skill while neutrally buoyant and in reasonable trim takes longer than semi-vertical and on your knees?

Because for many (most?) divers maintaining buoyancy and trim takes at least some non-zero focus and effort. And even if they are typically reasonably good at it, if put on the spot by John Chatterton in front of the group, the amount of required effort may triple.

 

[Zack-Bloom]

Cool. So you're on the it's ok to kneel to perform basic early technical skills bandwagon? Specifically because they didn't come to him to learn to shoot an smb or drop a stage but to penetrate a wreck? That's scary. There should be a certain level of skill required by any class at that level. Kneeling to perform a task shows a lack of skill.

The SMB launching technique was a new one we had only learned a couple days before, so you are seeing some task overloading, but I wouldn't read so much into it. We all launched SMBs neutrally buoyant (and higher in the water column) the day before this dive took place, and we will launch them neutrally buoyant many times in the future. Is this about us actually developing the skills you describe, or is it about something else?

I would guess that Chatterton would say, if you have a solid surface which won't be damaged by kneeling, why wouldn't you save some work, effort, and CO2 and kneel on it? You need to have the skills to dive well, but the game isn't to make every moment of your dive as hard as possible, particularly when learning something new.

 

[cerich]

The SMB launching technique was a new one we had only learned a couple days before, so you are seeing some task overloading, but I wouldn't read so much into it. We all launched SMBs neutrally buoyant (and higher in the water column) the day before this dive took place, and we will launch them neutrally buoyant many times in the future. Is this about us actually developing the skills you describe, or is it about something else?

I would guess that Chatterton would say, if you have a solid surface which won't be damaged by kneeling, why wouldn't you save some work, effort, and CO2 and kneel on it? You need to have the skills to dive well, but the game isn't to make every moment of your dive as hard as possible, particularly when learning something new.

May I ask if your group met the prerequisites as per Chattertons web or where you already adv nitrox and deco certified?

 

[cerich]

I would guess that Chatterton would say, if you have a solid surface which won't be damaged by kneeling, why wouldn't you save some work, effort, and CO2 and kneel on it? You need to have the skills to dive well, but the game isn't to make every moment of your dive as hard as possible, particularly when learning something new.

Doing skills in neutral vis actually easier.

 

[Zack-Bloom]

May I ask if your group met the prerequisites as per Chattertons web or where you already adv nitrox and deco certified?

Sure! We were already deco divers. They can also teach all the way from Intro to Tech, but I'm not sure we would have done that well not having time to practice before beginning the course. Your level of certification will determine which wrecks you can dive legally.

 

[rddvet]

Because for many (most?) divers maintaining buoyancy and trim takes at least some non-zero focus and effort. And even if they are typically reasonably good at it, if put on the spot by John Chatterton in front of the group, the amount of required effort may triple.

So what you're saying is it's really hard to be task loaded and maintain horizontal so therefore if the instructor is task loading the student they should be allowed to come out of horizontal trim and kneel in order to succeed? That's what it reads like and if so, that's pure BS. Technical students perform skills in proper trim every single day. They may not be perfect, but they do it. If they can't they need their basic skills revisited until they can.

The SMB launching technique was a new one we had only learned a couple days before, so you are seeing some task overloading, but I wouldn't read so much into it. We all launched SMBs neutrally buoyant (and higher in the water column) the day before this dive took place, and we will launch them neutrally buoyant many times in the future. Is this about us actually developing the skills you describe, or is it about something else?

I would guess that Chatterton would say, if you have a solid surface which won't be damaged by kneeling, why wouldn't you save some work, effort, and CO2 and kneel on it? You need to have the skills to dive well, but the game isn't to make every moment of your dive as hard as possible, particularly when learning something new.

There's nothing else other than this is a video showing a famous instructor allowing students to perform skills in a subpar manner. It's not your fault or the other students. It's simply that a good instructor should have much more stringent requirements and not be cutting corners. The argument about effort and CO2 is ridiculous, and if that's what he teaches then it's worse than what I've been told about his classes. If he's concerned about effort and increased wob leading to CO2, then he should be teaching his students to dive helium at those depths.

I've been told about the "nontraditional" things he teaches and the quality of student he'll allow out of his class. I didn't really fully believe the stories, but thought there must be some truth. It's interesting because he's famous and well respected for his accomplishments, but there is a growing number that see his training detracting from his legend. Seeing the video starts confirming the things I've heard. There's an instructor in cave country that's a "legend". He's dove everywhewre and explored more caves than most. Back in the day he was supposedly a great instructor. Nowadays he's old and crap. His students come out of his class learning old school, proven to be dangerous things and typically without the basic kicks and skills down. He's been approached by some of his former students suggesting he stop teaching. Sadly he is still a popular instructor because he's a legend.

 

[cerich]

Sure! We were already deco divers. They can also teach all the way from Intro to Tech, but I'm not sure we would have done that well not having time to practice before beginning the course. Your level of certification will determine which wrecks you can dive legally.

Certified deco divers?

Actually there are course standards, that is what is niggling in my mind.

Was the CCR diver a student?

 

[JohnnyC]

So what you're saying is it's really hard to be task loaded and maintain horizontal so therefore if the instructor is task loading the student they should be allowed to come out of horizontal trim and kneel in order to succeed? That's what it reads like and if so, that's pure BS. Technical students perform skills in proper trim every single day. They may not be perfect, but they do it. If they can't they need their basic skills revisited until they can.



There's nothing else other than this is a video showing a famous instructor allowing students to perform skills in a subpar manner. It's not your fault or the other students. It's simply that a good instructor should have much more stringent requirements and not be cutting corners. The argument about effort and CO2 is ridiculous, and if that's what he teaches then it's worse than what I've been told about his classes. If he's concerned about effort and increased wob leading to CO2, then he should be teaching his students to dive helium at those depths.

I've been told about the "nontraditional" things he teaches and the quality of student he'll allow out of his class. I didn't really fully believe the stories, but thought there must be some truth. It's interesting because he's famous and well respected for his accomplishments, but there is a growing number that see his training detracting from his legend. Seeing the video starts confirming the things I've heard. There's an instructor in cave country that's a "legend". He's dove everywhewre and explored more caves than most. Back in the day he was supposedly a great instructor. Nowadays he's old and crap. His students come out of his class learning old school, proven to be dangerous things and typically without the basic kicks and skills down. He's been approached by some of his former students suggesting he stop teaching. Sadly he is still a popular instructor because he's a legend.

Not singling anyone out in this particular scenario, but good divers are not always good teachers. Good teachers are not always great divers. Good people may be neither, and great divers may be sh*t humans. Ones accomplishments outside of teaching don't necessarily make one a good teacher. A great diver doesn't make one a great gear designer. None of those are mutually exclusive, neither correlation.

 

[lermontov]

That's actually also somewhat of a controversial point, and something that was discussed in class. In many types of wrecks, you have to balance the risks and benefits of a line vs progressive penetration (knowing the wreck and staying oriented). A line reduces some types of risk but can add risks in other situations.

most people dont have the time to become intimately acquainted with the wreck to use progressive penetration maybe they are only there for a few days and then back to work etc and even then id use a line for pretty much most penetration dives esp once I leave the light zone.
agreed it is sometimes situational but I've never heard of cave dives using progressive penetration in favour of a line so why differentiate, use the method that gives you maximises your margins