Valve drill

[AndyNZ]

BTW, I totally agree; the only reason I wrote about passing the class is that the previous poster had suggested not worrying about not being able to reach the valves because your teammates could do it for you. That's not acceptable in any GUE class, as I know from personal experience

That's not quite the interpretation I had in mind when I wrote it -"not worrying about it" is a bit different from saying it's not a showstopper. If I was at 55m and had to do a valve shut down, I'd have no qualms about loosening the harness if it meant the valve got shut down. You do what ever works.

Whether team member assistance is acceptable to pass a GUE course is utterly irrelevant - in a real emergency, if you're diving in a good team and having difficulties then a member of your team should be on to it. If their not, then you loosen the harness.

 

[grazie42]

Whether team member assistance is acceptable to pass a GUE course is utterly irrelevant - in a real emergency, if you're diving in a good team and having difficulties then a member of your team should be on to it. If their not, then you loosen the harness.

Forgive me here, not being dir, but in the real world you shouldn´t do the dives if you can´t shut down the valves...that´s the whole point of the "drill" in the first place...without getting too dramatic about it I can´t believe you even wrote that...

 

[stairman]

Valve shutdown drills are DIR and every other agency as well.DIR damn sure didnt invent it.If you dive twin 1st stages then valve drills have to be automatic.A dry suit may make it harder as well as an STA when diving an H-valve.If you can reach the left valve as stated,then simply pull your tank up with that hand and you will be able to reach the right valve .I always do a valve drill on the swim in,left,right and isolator.After which I only check my left valve a few times in and then coming back out since its the one vulnerable to rolloff with forward motion.If you have to think much about which way to turn any of the valves then your not doing the drills often enough to be automatic,which could pose a problem in a task loaded emergency.Coff=clockwise off,is one way to remember.I like the throttle up method like a motorcycle.Right valve and isolator[which you also turn with the right hand]turns on the gas with the same position .The left valve is opposite of the two rights.Throttle up right,throttle back left gives you the gas.Practice this drill often!

 

[Bismark]

That's not quite the interpretation I had in mind when I wrote it -"not worrying about it" is a bit different from saying it's not a showstopper. If I was at 55m and had to do a valve shut down, I'd have no qualms about loosening the harness if it meant the valve got shut down. You do what ever works.

Whether team member assistance is acceptable to pass a GUE course is utterly irrelevant - in a real emergency, if you're diving in a good team and having difficulties then a member of your team should be on to it. If their not, then you loosen the harness.

Andy, I think you are missing a bit of the point. I notice from your profile that you have taken fundamentals. Let me assure you that in Tech I or Tech II if you were unable to reach either valve or your isolator yourself when faced with a simulated failure, you would not pass the class. The immediate action to deal with a valve failure does not begin with "loosen waist belt if so required". Moreover, nothing personal here but I would not consider you for a teammate for a decompression dive if you were unable to shut your own valves off yourself without first going through the process of needing to loosen your waist belt: that is my gas that is blowing out of your valve and if you can't shut it off quickly and effeciently I would not do an overhead environment dive with you--virtual or otherwise. What would you do if you suffered a wing inflator failure? You do not have time to "first loosen your waist belt" before you need to begin shutting down your right valve. Now your teammate watches you begin an uncontrolled ascent with their gas in your tanks....let alone the consequences for your self. You need to turn this on it's head: It is not about you- it is about your team members. Long story short, from a DIR perspective, If you cannot shut that valve down yourself immediately, you have no business being at 55M.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Andy, I think you are missing a bit of the point. I notice from your profile that you have taken fundamentals. Let me assure you that in Tech I or Tech II if you were unable to reach either valve or your isolator yourself when faced with a simulated failure, you would not pass the class. The immediate action to deal with a valve failure does not begin with "loosen waist belt if so required". Moreover, nothing personal here but I would not consider you for a teammate for a decompression dive if you were unable to shut your own valves off yourself without first going through the process of needing to loosen your waist belt: that is my gas that is blowing out of your valve and if you can't shut it off quickly and effeciently I would not do an overhead environment dive with you--virtual or otherwise. What would you do if you suffered a wing inflator failure? You do not have time to "first loosen your waist belt" before you need to begin shutting down your right valve. Now your teammate watches you begin an uncontrolled ascent with their gas in your tanks....let alone the consequences for your self. You need to turn this on it's head: It is not about you- it is about your team members. Long story short, from a DIR perspective, If you cannot shut that valve down yourself immediately, you have no business being at 55M.

I think you may be losing sight of the forest for the trees.

For a wing inflator failure, I'd disconnect the inflator - its a lot quicker than shutting down the right post. Frankly, the immediate action should be disconnecting the inflator, not shutting down the valve. If I do the latter, it makes my primary unavailable and in turn that means you can't access "your" gas on the way out if the need arises anyway.

Another thing to consider. If a diver can just adequately reach the right post and turn it off in say, 10 seconds, it may still make a lot more sense to take 1 or 2 extra second up front to undo the waist strap and allow the right hand to have a better grip and more range of motion to shut the valve down in say, 5 seconds. That way it saves 3 or 4 seconds worth of freeflow of "your" gas.

Also, order is important in a real emergency not just going through a drill. For example, if I have a freeflowing second stage, I immediately shut down that post. If I have a large leak somewhere around the valves, I immediately shut the isolator as it is possibly a burst disc and that will dump gas faster than any other failure. The other likely alternative is a burst hose (although that is not likely with good predive inspection and maintenence) and that is also a impressive means of gas loss and either way I want to isolate first to ensure I have a reserve to get out as if I shut down the wrong post first, I am going to lose an awful lot of gas. If it is a small leak, it is likely a dynamic o-ring in a first stage and those leaks don't tend to get catastropic. If a diver has been assembling hoses and installing plugs with no lube it may be a static o-ring, but again the leaks don't tend to be catastrophic.

So in essence, the big leaks are either a freeflowing second stage (half of which require a right post shut down) or they are burst disc or hose issues where you will go for the isolator first unless you are absolutely sure it is a burst hose and you are sure which post it is on.

My point is that thinking about a problem is vital and you want the right response thoughtfully done, not just an automatic response to a drill if it involves doing the wrong thing first.

 

[Bismark]

I think you may be losing sight of the forest for the trees.

For a wing inflator failure, I'd disconnect the inflator - its a lot quicker than shutting down the right post. Frankly, the immediate action should be disconnecting the inflator, not shutting down the valve. If I do the latter, it makes my primary unavailable and in turn that means you can't access "your" gas on the way out if the need arises anyway.

Another thing to consider. If a diver can just adequately reach the right post and turn it off in say, 10 seconds, it may still make a lot more sense to take 1 or 2 extra second up front to undo the waist strap and allow the right hand to have a better grip and more range of motion to shut the valve down in say, 5 seconds. That way it saves 3 or 4 seconds worth of freeflow of "your" gas.

Also, order is important in a real emergency not just going through a drill. For example, if I have a freeflowing second stage, I immediately shut down that post. If I have a large leak somewhere around the valves, I immediately shut the isolator as it is possibly a burst disc and that will dump gas faster than any other failure. The other likely alternative is a burst hose (although that is not likely with good predive inspection and maintenence) and that is also a impressive means of gas loss and either way I want to isolate first to ensure I have a reserve to get out as if I shut down the wrong post first, I am going to lose an awful lot of gas. If it is a small leak, it is likely a dynamic o-ring in a first stage and those leaks don't tend to get catastropic. If a diver has been assembling hoses and installing plugs with no lube it may be a static o-ring, but again the leaks don't tend to be catastrophic.

So in essence, the big leaks are either a freeflowing second stage (half of which require a right post shut down) or they are burst disc or hose issues where you will go for the isolator first unless you are absolutely sure it is a burst hose and you are sure which post it is on.

My point is that thinking about a problem is vital and you want the right response thoughtfully done, not just an automatic response to a drill if it involves doing the wrong thing first.

This was posted in the DIR forum, so I gave a DIR answer. Different agencies have different approaches to immediate actions in the case of valve failures. While I am not saying that GUE training is the only way to be considered a DIR diver, your approach to valve failure troubleshooting is most assuredly not the GUE/DIR approach.

The GUE/DIR approach to valve trouble shooting begins with shutting down the right or left valve if you are able to identify positively which post is leaking. There is no immediate action which first calls for shutting down the isolator as you do not know if the leak is your valve or an extruded neck o-ring. Because the offending post/valve is behind you, all you are aware of is that gas is escaping from the general location. Until you shut down that valve, you cannot tell if the problem is the valve or the post. Of course, once the valve is shut down, and the corresponding second stage is de-pressurized, then if the bubbles continue, you immediately shut down the isolator. I understand that other agencies have a different approach to this (ie: shutting down the isolator first regardless) however, since this was posted in the DIR forum, I am providing a GUE/DIR answer.

I understand your argument for shutting down the isolator first and I have had this discussion with several non-DIR divers. However, the DIR answer in the DIR forum is that the most likely source of failure will occur in the working regulator. Hence, we begin to troubleshoot the problem (if we cannot clearly tell that the problem is coming from the left side) by starting there. If you are familiar with the GUE/DIR troubleshooting procedure than you know that we are not trying to train robots but rather thinking divers that begin solving the problem from the most statistically likely problem area.

As to inflator failiures, I don't know if you have tried to unhook a failed wing inflator with dry gloves in 45 degree water but from our experience the first thing that happens is that the inflator coupling freezes making it next to impossible too disconnect the inflator hose. This happened to one of our team mates this spring. There are various arguments presented within the DIR community as to the immediate action required, however, from our experience in relatively cold water, with drygloves, the only thing that works for sure is immediately shutting down the right post and dumping from the rear at the same time. Kinking the hose to the wing, or disconnecting the inflator coupling have not worked here in real life. We have tried both. Once the coupling warms to ambient temperature after the gas flow ceases, you can then disconnect the LP hose and then turn your right valve back on, again providing your primary regulator with gas. You have just experienced one major failure at that point and it is time to go home.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

This was posted in the DIR forum, so I gave a DIR answer. Different agencies have different approaches to immediate actions in the case of valve failures. While I am not saying that GUE training is the only way to be considered a DIR diver, your approach to valve failure troubleshooting is most assuredly not the GUE/DIR approach.

The GUE/DIR approach to valve trouble shooting begins with shutting down the right or left valve if you are able to identify positively which post is leaking. There is no immediate action which first calls for shutting down the isolator as you do not know if the leak is your valve or an extruded neck o-ring. Because the offending post/valve is behind you, all you are aware of is that gas is escaping from the general location. Until you shut down that valve, you cannot tell if the problem is the valve or the post. Of course, once the valve is shut down, and the corresponding second stage is de-pressurized, then if the bubbles continue, you immediately shut down the isolator. I understand that other agencies have a different approach to this (ie: shutting down the isolator first regardless) however, since this was posted in the DIR forum, I am providing a GUE/DIR answer.

I understand your argument for shutting down the isolator first and I have had this discussion with several non-DIR divers. However, the DIR answer in the DIR forum is that the most likely source of failure will occur in the working regulator. Hence, we begin to troubleshoot the problem (if we cannot clearly tell that the problem is coming from the left side) by starting there. If you are familiar with the GUE/DIR troubleshooting procedure than you know that we are not trying to train robots but rather thinking divers that begin solving the problem from the most statistically likely problem area.

As to inflator failiures, I don't know if you have tried to unhook a failed wing inflator with dry gloves in 45 degree water but from our experience the first thing that happens is that the inflator coupling freezes making it next to impossible too disconnect the inflator hose. This happened to one of our team mates this spring. There are various arguments presented within the DIR community as to the immediate action required, however, from our experience in relatively cold water, with drygloves, the only thing that works for sure is immediately shutting down the right post and dumping from the rear at the same time. Kinking the hose to the wing, or disconnecting the inflator coupling have not worked here in real life. We have tried both. Once the coupling warms to ambient temperature after the gas flow ceases, you can then disconnect the LP hose and then turn your right valve back on, again providing your primary regulator with gas. You have just experienced one major failure at that point and it is time to go home.

Not to belabor the point, but there are just not that many massive leak failures that will occur with the first stage and a large leak behind you is most likely going to be the burst disc with an extruded o-ring coming in a distant second and shutting down the post will tell you absolutely nothing as it will not even slow down the leak.

Furthermore, a ruptured burst disc can dump an AL80 in not much over a minute. So if you are at the point of maximum pentration, with 2/3rds of, for example, 240 cu ft left, in one minute with a ruptured burst disc you will lose another 1/3rd of your gas and it will be from both tanks, meaning you will not have enough gas left in the remaining tank (by the time you isolate it) to get yourself out. At that point you have just executed a trouble shooting procedure that leaves you reliant on your buddy(ies) gas to get out. Assuming all that gas, silt and confusion puts you in lost buddy situation, things could get interesting.

Otherwise, I agree, most, but not all, failures are most likely to occur with the reg in use - but 99% of the time they will present as a minor leak/stream of bubbles from the first stage or a freeflow from the second stage. The exception here is a leaking HP seat. That will be noticed in the unused back up reg as they start slow and the reg has to be unused for the IP to rise high enough to cause the second stage to vent the excess pressure.

I cut my teeth ice diving and I've had frozen/stuck inflators before. Proper selection of the QD fitting resolves the hard to disconnect inflator issue. If you are going to be diving in 45 degree water with dry gloves, you need to configure for it and select a QD fitting that can be easily manipulated with heavy gloves or dry gloves. Shutting down the right had post is a crutch. Also, you can do one with the left hand and start doing the other with the right if you feel that disconnecting the inflator will not be effective.

Of course, if you practice disconnecting the QD fitting on a reglar basis, you'll either discover you have a less than optimum QD fitting or that it is in fact no big deal and can be done in about a second and a half. The irony here of course is that this approach is taught to cold water Open Water divers all over the place and they seem to manage it just fine. Very odd.

I am also not in agreement that GUE=DIR. All GUE divers will consider themselves to be DIR, but many DIR divers have never taken a GUE class nor do they neccesarily like the politics or kool-aid involved in GUE. This is probably a case in point. DIR does not preclude considering or reconsidering that way things have been done and/or optimizing a configuration for a particular dive, but that is much more controversial with GUE where the development of standards is centralized rather than more grass roots in nature.

 

[Shawn@IReallyloveScub]

After reading the last few posts I could not remember the original question and had to go back and read it again. How did you get here boys?????

Bismarks statement are more consistant with this forum, in my beginner opinion.

 

[lamont]

Bismarks statement are more consistant with this forum, in my beginner opinion.

Yep. Please don't make me have to figure out how to moderate this one.

The argument over going to the post or the isolator first has been done to death. The argument will never get settled, but the GUE/DIR answer is to go to the post first. If we really need to have that argument again, I can break this thread up and move that discussion over to the technical diving forum.

The valve drill is also not a scenario-based response to failures. That is what the 9 failures are for, which is covered in tech1/tech2/cave1/cave2.

And we don't need yet another thread about what DIR diving is or is not. For the purposes of this forum DIR diving is mostly the intersection of GI3/GUE/WKPP/AG diving. And its true that not all DIR divers have taken a GUE course -- RTodd and Dan Volker come immediately to mind.

 

[Bismark]

Not to belabor the point, but there are just not that many massive leak failures that will occur with the first stage and a large leak behind you is most likely going to be the burst disc with an extruded o-ring coming in a distant second and shutting down the post will tell you absolutely nothing as it will not even slow down the leak.

Furthermore, a ruptured burst disc can dump an AL80 in not much over a minute. So if you are at the point of maximum pentration, with 2/3rds of, for example, 240 cu ft left, in one minute with a ruptured burst disc you will lose another 1/3rd of your gas and it will be from both tanks, meaning you will not have enough gas left in the remaining tank (by the time you isolate it) to get yourself out. At that point you have just executed a trouble shooting procedure that leaves you reliant on your buddy(ies) gas to get out. Assuming all that gas, silt and confusion puts you in lost buddy situation, things could get interesting.

Otherwise, I agree, most, but not all, failures are most likely to occur with the reg in use - but 99% of the time they will present as a minor leak/stream of bubbles from the first stage or a freeflow from the second stage. The exception here is a leaking HP seat. That will be noticed in the unused back up reg as they start slow and the reg has to be unused for the IP to rise high enough to cause the second stage to vent the excess pressure.

I cut my teeth ice diving and I've had frozen/stuck inflators before. Proper selection of the QD fitting resolves the hard to disconnect inflator issue. If you are going to be diving in 45 degree water with dry gloves, you need to configure for it and select a QD fitting that can be easily manipulated with heavy gloves or dry gloves. Shutting down the right had post is a crutch. Also, you can do one with the left hand and start doing the other with the right if you feel that disconnecting the inflator will not be effective.

Of course, if you practice disconnecting the QD fitting on a reglar basis, you'll either discover you have a less than optimum QD fitting or that it is in fact no big deal and can be done in about a second and a half. The irony here of course is that this approach is taught to cold water Open Water divers all over the place and they seem to manage it just fine. Very odd.

I am also not in agreement that GUE=DIR. All GUE divers will consider themselves to be DIR, but many DIR divers have never taken a GUE class nor do they neccesarily like the politics or kool-aid involved in GUE. This is probably a case in point. DIR does not preclude considering or reconsidering that way things have been done and/or optimizing a configuration for a particular dive, but that is much more controversial with GUE where the development of standards is centralized rather than more grass roots in nature.

The way I understand the process of troubleshooting, it is a process that has a beginning and hopefully a resolution. You begin with the most likely event and work from there. In this case, the GUE approach is that the most likely event is a failure somewhere in the working regulator. (Right valve) At this point you do not know where it is but by eliminating the valve itself and the second stage and hose, you have eliminated one potential spot. In a properly trained diver this process takes seconds. If you still here bubbles or escaping gas, from what you believe is the same area, you should reach the conclusion that it is either a burst disk issue, extruded neck o-ring or even the o rings on the manifold as they enter the right valve. Your immediate action in that case is to shut the isolator, thus preserving your remaining gas supply. In a properly trained diver, these two actions should take seconds to accomplish and in fact this is the primary reason why the GUE approach stresses skill and training. It is a question of trade offs here that you have chosen to "trade off" differently than I have. No harm there, just your view is different than mine. However, because we do not share a common reaction to a perceived problem, we will not be reacting in a similar fashion to that problem. Therein lies the problem and why it would be a bad idea for you and I to do an agressive dive profile together. I am sure you are a marvelous diver as am I however if you push when I think you should pull, we will have problem in an emergency. And this is the beauty of a centralized "authority" if you will as to emergency protocols. I know that every person I dive with in an agressive dive (deco or hard overhead) will react in exactly the same way to the same problem. And furthermore, we train to do this and keep our personal and team skills at a high level. We do not believe in "same day-same ocean" diving for technical dives for the reasons listed above. We have elected to share the same "trade offs" as it were.

More on the LP inflator issue: I am aware of some very easy to disconnect quick disconnect fitting. However, in my view, the problem with these items is that the very function they are designed to serve creates the additional problem of them disconnecting too easy. I am sure that you have seen standard quick disconnects come disconnected at the damndest times, usually when you don't want them too. I have made a conscious choice to accept that I do not ever want a quick disconnect to come disconnected unless I want it to and I will accept the consequences of this choice. I can shut my right post down and dump air from the rear very quickly in the event of a malfunctioning LP inflator and we practise this in the event of such a failure. You mention that you can disconnect your LP inflator in 1.5 seconds and you practise that. In our experience they have frozen in that time period.

I am enjoying this conversation a lot however, I still feel we are drifting away from the DIR forum rules a bit.......please don't bring up independent doubles