UTD Z-side mount with isolatable manifold

[TheRedDiver]

The QC6s hoses [and distribution block] can be assembled

I posted some pics of the rig I built (which includes the distribution "block")

 

[tracydr]

Having all that hardware behind your head is exactly what SM is intended to do away with. As for your concern about donating a hose in an OOA event, two things I would like you to think about.

1) How often do you have to donate anything... for real: not during an S-Drill?
2) Put a longhose on both tanks.

For issues about swopping second stages during the dive, see my article in the latest edition of X-Ray Magazine.

I was just wondering why one couldn't just put a long hose on both tanks. End of problem.

 

[victorzamora]

Tracy, there are a few problems with double longhoses. Mostly, routing the hoses isn't a very clean proposition. That's not hard, but it's hard to get both long hoses completely free on every dive while worrying about plugging in your LPI and drysuit and clipping everything else off. It's hard enough for me to get ONE longhose routed so I can fully deploy it on every dive...I wouldn't want to deal with two, and then deal with keeping them both untangled. Once you have that sorted out, there's also the question of whether or not you put one on a necklace, both on a necklace, clip one off, clip both off, clip both of on same side, or clip off on opposite sides. Also, gas planning gets more complicated. When I start a dive (especially cave), I switch regs in a way to accomodate the right tank usually having more air than the left tank. That way, when I donate, you get the more full tank EVERY TIME to accomodate your increased SAC rate from stress.

Some people claim that the extra hose length could possibly mean extra complications and/or failures from hose damage. I think that's pretty minimal and am not too concerned by that. My only other concern is that it's opposite of what my training taught me. Even while I was diving with a single tank before I ever thought I'd possibly want to do tech, my training and mentality was that I'm MORE than happy to give you my long hose....but this bungied reg is mine. If you try to take it, it will end poorly for you. I don't want two long hoses. I want one for MY emergencies, and I want one for YOUR emergencies. That's how BM divers perceive their regs (mine and yours). Why doesn't that work for SM?

 

[Doppler]

There are a few problems with double longhoses. Mostly, routing the hoses isn't a very clean proposition. ...

I do agree... and the whole OOA donation thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO.

 

[MScorpa]

I'm still a bit confused on the scenario where two divers are in a tight cave (or any other confined space/overhead) with zero vis, no lights and one of them runs OOA. If they were following DIR and UTD protocol then they should be using the rule of thirds and wouldn't run out of air in the first place unless there was a major equipment malfunction. Excessive Bubbles would certainly be felt/heard by your buddy even with zero vis and no lights. That would trigger the donating buddy to deploy a long hose and pass it up/back regardless of diving backmount or sidemount before all the gas is lost. Even if one of them screwed up and did run out of air they would have to signal, not be able to turn around and rip a reg from the buddy's mouth. So say there is enough room to turn around and face the donating diver, they could still breathe off a 22" hose then swap regs to the long hose and exit. Where's the problem? If that is any more difficult than having to turn tanks on and off under those conditions while grasping a cave line then you probably shouldn't be diving a cave in the first place.

In any situation other than confined space/overhead why would it make a difference if the OOA diver took a 22" hose or the long hose? Or a 9" hose for that matter? Just grab a reg and both go up.

I have to agree with the statement that the z-manifold is solving a gear problem that isn't there and it's solving a training problem with gear. If it makes you (or your backmount buddys) more comfortable to dive with it and you think it's worth not having to re-route a couple of hoses or swap regs then by all means, do whatever makes you a better safer diver, but to say the z-manifold is any safer or better than a conventional sidemount setup is just not true. Personally I've always found it better to configure my gear under the 'more is less and less is more' motto, bringing as few things with me as possible and leaving behind any unnecessary bulk.

Also, how is conventional sidemount not compatible with DIR other than breathing your short hose half the time? It seems pretty clear that regardless of the hose you happen to be breathing the long hose can always be donated.

---------- Post added August 26th, 2013 at 04:45 PM ----------

I posted some pics of the rig I built (which includes the distribution "block")

That's not too much different from the setup I created with the exception that I had a single brass block designed by Zeagle, no threaded or o-ring connections except at the hoses, and I used a Nomad harness. I would keep this rig in open water only though. If you get a free flowing reg you could quickly become that OOA diver...

 

[Kevrumbo]

Again . . .Z-sidemount is not "about solving a training problem with gear". And there is no claim that it is better or safer than conventional sidemount. It just works better for me diving Indo-Pacific WWII wrecks:

kevrumbo's Page - Unified Team Diving

It's a solution -albeit more complex and diverging from orthodox DIR and even conventional sidemount practice- for those divers like myself who dive with mixed international UTD/GUE teams (btw -always using the metric system), and elect to keep fundamental long hose diving paradigm, technique & protocol.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/si...-mount-isolatable-manifold-5.html#post6837393

 

[victorzamora]

Kev: Could you explain to me what part of "I'm donating my long hose" conflicts with the fundamental long hose diving paradigm, technique, and protocol?

 

[DevonDiver]

To me, opening and closing valves is too big of a hassle to be compensated for by always breathing off of your long hose.

In the last 12 months, I've suffered two cylinder valve handle failures - using rental cylinders the thread had stripped and the cylinder couldn't be turned off/on.

If diving with a z-manifold, with regs being turned off during the dive, that could easily have meant I was unable to access gas from one tank. A critical failure.

However, I don't use the manifold, so enjoy the logical state of having both of my cylinders on and accessible throughout the dive.

 

[MScorpa]

Again . . .Z-sidemount is not "about solving a training problem with gear". And there is no claim that it is better or safer than conventional sidemount. It just works better for me diving Indo-Pacific WWII wrecks

If it is unacceptable to donate the long hose either from your mouth, the shoulder d-ring or swap a reg if the wrong one is taken then to me that is a training problem. It was implied in earlier posts (not by you Kev) that if one were to take a 22" hose out of the diver's mouth then you would be more likely to die than if you just used the z-manifold and only provide the long hose from your mouth. I disagree. That being said the z-manifold does it's function well and can be convenient in the sense that it is set up like a standard DIR doubles rig with all the hoses pre-routed, just plug in the tanks and go. For me the added complexities, weight, bulk and cost outweigh the conveniences the system provides and really doesn't increase safety in any way.

 

[rjack321]

I think some of you missed the point of AG's intention as discussed earlier. His sole intention is to make side mount compatible to DIR and enabled mixed team. Now we can argue if that make sense at all. I don't know enough about side mount to say I agree or disagree. The z-manifold is just a piece of detail in the execution.

Unlike AG, I have actually been in caves which are too small vertically to reach back and put a hand between my shoulder blades. I might have been able to intermittently, but the added depth would have depressed my drysuit inflator. And I have been in systems where there's not room for my elbows to move around to turn valves in my armpits on/off, at least consistently. I will happily dive a "mixed team" with a back mounted doubles and mCCR divers in there. But alas for some reason they aren't interested? Hence I've found the need to be setup with a looped long hose across my chest and around my head and a remote isolatable manifold to be a bit of a marketing ploy. What do you think? Is it worth perfecting a mixed "DIR" equipment configuration if nobody wants to dive there?

---------- Post added August 26th, 2013 at 07:23 PM ----------

Excessive Bubbles would certainly be felt/heard by your buddy even with zero vis and no lights. That would trigger the donating buddy to deploy a long hose and pass it up/back regardless of diving backmount or sidemount before all the gas is lost. Even if one of them screwed up and did run out of air they would have to signal, not be able to turn around and rip a reg from the buddy's mouth. So say there is enough room to turn around and face the donating diver, they could still breathe off a 22" hose then swap regs to the long hose and exit. Where's the problem? If that is any more difficult than having to turn tanks on and off under those conditions while grasping a cave line then you probably shouldn't be diving a cave in the first place..

I'm guessing you have never been cave diving before...

In ALOT of caves there are only occasional places to turn around. There is no way to remotely (like a body length and a bit away) hear "excessive bubbles". Normal bubbles on the roof can make a ton of noise while an actual failure like a leaking 2nd stage can only make a modest amount of noise.