Using a long hose primary while teaching OW??

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It sounds like, eventually, I may consider having 2 different reg sets; one "standard", and one long hose. I really do not want to cause any confusion with new OW students. Of course, I'll probably still get a longer alternate hose.

Thanks for all of the information.
 
@Diver0001, So you view the issue mostly being with wearing primary donate, if that is not the method you are teaching in OW. Realizing what makes sense in OW usually depends on the shop gear.
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Are you asking a question here? Can you re-formulate please? I'm not sure what you want me to address.

R..
 
The long hose is not contrary to standards. The complication will be if you work together with other instructors. In that case you will all need to use the same configuration if you intend to mix groups or have anything resembling a team style. If that means everyone uses a long-hose then fine but practically speaking it usually means that nobody uses a long-hose.

On a side note, you can share air perfectly well using a short hose, even while swimming and/or ascending together. Remember that a long-hose was designed for circumstances where the divers were carrying considerably more gear with them and/or needing to exit an overhead in single file. This is not the context of the OW course so the short hose, even if you don't like it for philosophical reasons, is perfectly adequate and gets the job done.

If every gear related demo you do is then followed up by having to explain that the can't do it the way you do it then you're not teaching them, you're just being stubborn and putting them at a disadvantage in the process.

Is your concern for OW just the long hose or also the primary donate, and likely necklace? In reading the above I was not sure if by 'short hose' you meant 'I give you my octo' or just not a 5' or 7' hose.

I may be mixing concerns of a) long hose, 5' or 7', and b) primary donate with a short 40" hose. The length of a long hose definitely adds an extra restow step for the instructor that is extraneous to what OW students need to see. As a DM candidate not is a shop, it seems a 40" primary and necklaced secondary could easily teach primary or secondary donate, to match the needs of the OW students gear. If we feel primary donate is a good idea, and have an option, I'm not sure we do the students a service by only showing them what we might view as less desirable a method.

Edit: Is the concern the rigging for primary donate? Even if that is currently used as secondary donate. I.e., breathing necklace and 40" clipped off with a tear out bungee loop. And this has all been debated many times. OP seems fine, and I do not assist with OW.
 
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My instructor used it when I took AOW. I became curious, asked questions which eventually led me going to long hose
 
It sounds like, eventually, I may consider having 2 different reg sets; one "standard", and one long hose. I really do not want to cause any confusion with new OW students. Of course, I'll probably still get a longer alternate hose.

Thanks for all of the information.

I have 2 reg sets. One, for doubles, with a 7' hose. The other, for single tank, with a 40" hose and a short hose. When I dive single tank, the short hose goes to an alternate bungeed under my chin. The 40" hose goes under my right arm and up to my mouth.

But, when I'm working with an OW class, I put the reg on the 40" hose into an octo holder on a right shoulder strap D-ring and I use the reg on the short hose for breathing. I have been leaving it on its bungee necklace, but when I start teaching OW, I may remove the bungee necklace for class. Otherwise, it would be hard to demo the reg recovery skills...

The only advantage (in my mind) to having a 5' or 7' hose on a single tank reg set is that it lets you spit out your reg without it falling all the way down to whatever is 40" lower than your tank valve. I.e. there is really not much reason I can see to going with a 5' or 7' hose on a single tank reg set. The real reason for having a long hose is for air sharing in environments where you may need to go single file or similar. But, you shouldn't be diving in environments like that in a single tank configuration.

OTOH, if you're going to be working with OW students, it seems like there is SOME benefit to using the exact same gear configuration they are.

Having a 7' hose on a single tank reg set "just to be the same as my doubles reg set" does not seem like a valid reason, to me. Gear configuration should be what it is because it makes sense for its intended use. Being "like" a different config that is used for a different purpose, just for the sake of "likeness", does not make sense, to me.

If there is a reason/benefit to have a 40" hose and no reason/benefit to have a 7' hose, then the choice seems easy.
 
Is your concern for OW just the long hose or also the primary donate, and likely necklace? In reading the above I was not sure if by 'short hose' you meant 'I give you my octo' or just not a 5' or 7' hose.

I may be mixing concerns of a) long hose, 5' or 7', and b) primary donate with a short 40" hose. The length of a long hose definitely adds an extra restow step for the instructor that is extraneous to what OW students need to see. As a DM candidate not is a shop, it seems a 40" primary and necklaced secondary could easily teach primary or secondary donate, to match the needs of the OW students gear. If we feel primary donate is a good idea, and have an option, I'm not sure we do the students a service by only showing them what we might view as less desirable a method.

Edit: Is the concern the rigging for primary donate? Even if that is currently used as secondary donate. I.e., breathing necklace and 40" clipped of with a tear out bungee loop. And this all got debated many times. OP seems fine.

I'm still not quite sure what you want to know but I'll give you some background information and my personal thoughts about it and see if that covers it.

MOST PADI instructors are still teaching to donate the octopus. The standards do not dictate this. In fact the wording has been changed over time to reflect that donating the primary is also possible. PADI would allow the instructor to teach either and in any configuration the instructor chooses. Because of this the roles of the person donating and the person receiving air are defined to put the donator in the driver's seat once the OOA sign has been given because as receiver you "receive" a regulator, whether it is the primary or the secondary. That takes the guesswork out of it. Years ago the roles were reversed but this has been sharpened up to reflect the modern realities.

Naturally our sport is dominated by two main variations. (1) short hose primary, donate the secondary and (2) long hose primary and donate the primary. There are other configurations that use, for example things like an AIR-2 or long hose secondary among others. The point being that no matter how you do it, the configuration needs to make sense and the instructor decides the protocol (within the roles defined).

That's where the flexibility sits.

In practice, however, one configuration is much more prevalent than all the others world wide. Namely short hose primary and donate the secondary.

That's where my personal opinion starts. My thinking is that if the vast majority of divers are still using this then this is what I want to teach. Divers who get insta-buddied with strangers are *most* likely to encounter this. Moreover, donating a longhose primary will not properly prepare a new diver for the slight complication of having to swim together with another diver using a "trad" configuration. The long hose is easier, which, for me is a reason to introduce it after they understand the trad config first. I guess you can see it as being like teaching a calculator *after* but not before learning how to add.

I also only only teach the trad config in the OW course. I discuss the fact that there are alternatives but i don't confuse matters with showing them X-number of variations. i want them to automate, as much as possible, one way that they can really rely on remembering if it ever comes down to it.

Finally I believe that once a novice diver has 20 or 30 dives of experience and is getting well comfortable with their own process of diving that none of this really matters as much. Once the diver is relaxed and most skills are getting to the point of being fully automated then there will be much more free attention (and therefore potential for flexibility) available when something unusual happens.

Does that address your question?

R..
 
@Diver0001 I think the definition of long hose may have been lost in translation. I take long hose to mean primary donate and is anything attached to the primary second stage that is as long or longer than the "standard" octopus hose length. In the pool for us that is a 32", in open water it is either 40" or 84". It doesn't always mean a 60/84" true long hose that is hog looped

@Birddog1911 I have several reg sets
Double Hose
Single tank with 7' hose
Double Tank
Sidemount
4x stage
2x deco

If I am loaning someone the single tank setup and they are not comfortable with the 7' hose, I just swap it to a 40" with a swivel from one of my stage bottles and call it a day. The rest of the hoses do not move or change. There is no reason unless the shop mandates that you dive secondary donate/take for you to have a reg set dedicated to that. If they mandate that you do that, just tell them they have to provide you a rental regulator set FoC. Personally I think all shops should allow instructors free use of rental equipment to put the instructors in comparable quality gear to the students as it is only fair
 
to eliminate confusion there are only two possibilities regardless of hose length.

- donate the primary
- donate the secondary

Maybe we should focus on that.

R..
 
@Diver0001, Thanks. The closeness of a ‘normal’ air share not coming as a shock makes sense. And the instructor having to stow a 5’ hose is more than is essential in open water.

It would be great if the student’s hose lengths did not lock them into secondary donate. Breathing a 22” hose, no necklace, and putting a 40” in an octo holder would seem to allow that. With easy conversion to necklace and bolt snap as desired.

If Padi is now donor controls, and all the receiver sees is a reg given to them, I do not see a problem with 40" primary donate for OW, except maybe the necklace for the secondary. Reg sets with a 22" and a 40" hose seem to allow either choice depending on the student's comfort level with a necklace. Edit: Unfortunately snorkels and necklaces are not the most convenient together.
 
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My snorkel does not interfere with my reg set and in fact it is helpful in controlling my long hose. It's in a pouch on my waist and I tuck the long hose under that pouch. :D
 

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