Upgrading from a rec BCD to a BP/W

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I am looking into takeing some tech classes like cave, Adv nitrox, Trimix within the next year or so, and I was wondering which Back plates and wings you would reccomend for useing with like double steel 120's?

The two main factors in selecting a doubles Wing is the buoyancy of the divers exposure suit and the volume of the cylinders to be used.

Do you know what exposure suit you will need for longer, deeper, colder exposures that come with using doubles?

Are you use sure you will be using 120's? If so which 120's?

My advice is to get a single tank BP&W, dive it a while. The plate and harness will transfer easily to doubles, with the appropriate wing.

Talk to your prospective instructors about which tanks they would recommend for the "Intro to Tech" type classes you are considering.

Keep in mind that what you now assume you need for an exposure suit and cylinders, and what you actually need may not be the same.

Good luck,

Tobin
 
I am really not sureon exposure suits, I guess mabey a 3mm considering I plan to do warmer dives, and have a high tolerance to the cold, but still got to worry about hypothermia. Still not sure on size or type of tank rather its LP or HP steel or standerd aluminum's I don't know the size I assume 120's steel, but I have also a quick question: is it possible to dive double aluminum 80's, and if it is possible would a full double alumnium show up as 6000 psi on the SPG or just the normal 3000?
 
I am really not sureon exposure suits, I guess mabey a 3mm considering I plan to do warmer dives, and have a high tolerance to the cold, but still got to worry about hypothermia. Still not sure on size or type of tank rather its LP or HP steel or standerd aluminum's I don't know the size I assume 120's steel, but I have also a quick question: is it possible to dive double aluminum 80's, and if it is possible would a full double alumnium show up as 6000 psi on the SPG or just the normal 3000?

I don't want to seem flippant, or unkind, but you need to slow WAY down. You need to get a much better handle on the basic physics of diving before you consider any more training of any type.

Tobin
 
Find yourself an intro to tech course, or a GUE Fundamentals course, and proceed from there. You will learn all about the different gear configurations and so forth. But it does seem like you're moving a bit fast.

Your profile says you are moving to Florida. What part? There are some excellent instructors in Florida.
 
Is more than bolting a few backplates, wings, and tanks together. If you are going to dive caves, most Florida cave divers use steel 95's (not all but most). If you are diving wrecks the 120's could be okay, but imagine yourself with 100+ pounds on your back trying to exit the water for a pitching dive ladder and boat. The exposure suit is a real factor, 3mm in 72 degree water in caves isn't enough for me, (I dive dry or 7mm). You'll need two regulators, bands, manifolds, and a good instructor. Don't be in such a hurry to buy and assemble your tech gear. Dive and learn.
 
Please don't take this personal, its just an objective opinion.

Someone recently made a comment in another "tech" related thread. It went something to the effect of: "why do you want to get 'there' when you don't know where 'there' is." I thought that was a great quote.

It appears you have a LOT of basics to learn and master before even considering aggressive diving. Since you asked about doubles and their respective PSI, here is a good animated knowledge review of Boyle's law.

Gas Volume vs. Pressure (Boyle's Law) - Learning Activity

By the time people get into technical training they have a solid understanding of gas management, exposure protection, and gear configuration. (Or at least they should) It doesn't appear that you have solidified those skills yet.

Go out and dive a lot more. Read a lot more. Take some more non-tech related classes. GUE-F as someone mentioned would be a good start. Then dive some more, then consider an intro to tech.
 
I attended ERAU at the Prescott AZ campus a long time ago...

I'll take a more moderate approach to the doubles thing.

1. I agree that it makes sense to just buy what you need once rather than buysomething, then buy something else.

2. From that perspective double AL 80's make a great deal of sense - especially if you forsee yourself diving in a 3mm wet suit. AL80's are slightyl positive (about 4 lbs each) when empty, so unlike most steel doubles they are comparatively bouyant. That tends to make them a bit more stable and eases the problem of swimming them up from depth in the event of a wing failure - a consideration if you are diving a wet suit as it compresses and leaves you more negative at depth and it does nto function as redundant buoyancy like a dry suit.

3. Double AL 80's use 7.25" diameter bands and the bands and manifold can be tranfsferred to many higher capcity steel tanks such as X7 series worthington tanks in the 100 - 120 cu ft range. The AL 80's can then be used as singles and configured as stage bottles so they do not become useless or a wasted purchase.

4. Assuming you have a reasonably good sac rate in the .6 range on a normal working dive, double AL80's will allow you about 25 minutes of bottom time at 150' with a 1/3rd reserve. That is enough gas to get you all tthe way through advanced nitrox and deco procedures, Cavern, Intro to Cave, etc.

5. Doubles are not rocket science. You do not need a specialized class to dive them. You have two regs but the overall configuration is not hard and once explained it makes sense and is fairly intuitive. YOU DO NEED at a minimum someone to mentor you show you the ropes, help with equipment selection and square you away on the basic configuration (stick with a basic DIR approach as most instructors will not find serious fault with it.) I encourage divers to get very familiar with and comfortable in doubles prior to taking a tech course as adding the learning curve for doubles on top of the curve for a tech class can be daunting and results in much frustration and little actual learning.

6. The opposing arguments are that doubles are somehow hard to manage and or sacred tech territory. They are not. Doubles were very popular in the 60's, 70's and 80's with recreational divers - modern versiosn just add an isolator manifold and an extra first stage. They offer more capability and flexibility but can still be used in a recreational setting. The other concern is that the 154 cu ft of gas in double AL80's is more than enough to get a new diver in trouble. If you tuirn on gas rather than time you will get bent. If you understand NDL's and have the good sense to stay within the NDL's the extra gas is not going to harm you at all. I am big on personal resonsibility and see arbitrary restrictions on who can dive doubles as being counter productive and just plain stupid.

7. So...find a local technical diver who knows his or her stuff (avoid the wannabees and the guys with big egos and or stong opinions they canot support with real world experience or anything other than "thats what the book said, so and so, etc said." If a dier really knows his or her stuff they can articulate exactly why they do something and exactly why it is a solid idea and can explain the pros and cons of a given approach or configuration. Some people will seriously object to that mentoring approach but that is exactly how DIR used to be taught - diver to diver in a mentoring relationship long before GUE was even thought of.

8. Do lots of homework, know the physics, know how the systems work, know your limits and know that you are mortal and are far from bullet proof. I did a lot of stupid $--t in airplanes and was very lucky to survive long enough to figure out that even if very talented, bold pilots never live to be old pilots. The same rules of the universe apply to diving.

9. In general, AL 80's with a modern 200 bar DIN isolator manifold, and decent 7.25" tank bands is a good first set. A one piece harness on an alumium or stainless steel backplate is a good choice. (in most cases, aluminum is -2 lbs negative, SS is -6 lbs negative).

10. What plate you use shoudl be determined by your weight requirements. You can figure that pretty closely by adding in the extra bouyancy of the second AL80 (about 4 lbs when empty) to what you currently use with a single AL 80. Then substract about 5 lbs for the manifold and bands, and the weight of the plate -2 to -6 lbs) and the weight of an extra second stage (maybe -1 lbs). For example, if you currently dive with 10 lbs of weight with a single AL 80 in a 3mm suit, add 4 lbs for the tank, subtract 12 lbs for the manifold, bands and reg, and you will be in the 1-2 lbs of weight needed range. Test it in a normal open water dive. Do the first dive (ending at no less than 1500 psi , then do the second dive and plan on making your safety stop with 500 psi. Ideally you will hold at 10' with no air in the wing with 500 psi in the tanks and be neutral. Add or remove weight to achieve neutral buoyancy in that condition.

11. In most cases a good doubles wing in the 40-50 lb range will get you where you need to go in technical diving. There are several models that work well. Avoid bungees and other gimics. I am not a big fan of dual bladder/dual inflator wings, but some instructors will insist on it if you are not diving a dry suit.

Do your homework, and use the above as a guide but most importantly find a competent local tech diver or a competent technical diving instructor to get you moving in the right direction. It is not something you can learn to do on the internet. Then do not exceed any recreational or certification limit until you complete the required technical classes.

Tobin sells great stuff and I would not be afraid to buy anything from him.
 

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