Underwater panic.

[holdingmybreath]

I guarantee you that if ever I run out of air at depth, I will not exhale while I'm trying to rectify the problem. I will hold my breath, you may exhale if you want, and you may instruct others to exhale, but until such time that I decide I'd better high tail it to the surface or I have my other or someone elses regulator in my mouth I will continue to hold my breath. I suspect you would too, unless you are on your way to the surface. My point was that apnea training can greatly improve your awareness to how much time you actually have, even when you feel out of breath. Had the original poster ERP been an apnea enthusiast I doubt he would have panicked in the situation he described.

 

[ERP]

Walter once bubbled...
Panic is the most dangerous part of diving. It can kill. It could have killed you. Heading for the surface while panicked is extremely dangerous. I'm glad you are OK.

Yeah I'm glad I'm OK too.
I understand that panic is dangerous and I am generally not the sort of person who panics. It's one of the reasons I thought that this story was worth posting.

You said, "About 10 minutes into the dive after an air drill, I replaced my primary reg, inhaled and got a mouth full of water."
Was this an OOA drill with your buddy? What exactly were you doing? If it were an OOA drill with your buddy, you should both watch each other after the drill until you are sure you are both OK.

Oh my buddy was right there looking at me. He just isn't a mind reader, he obviously saw me put the reg in upside down, and was ready to assist if I requested it. When he saw the reg go into freeflow, he figured I had air, and it was best just to let me resolve the situation rather than being proactive.

Why did you start with an inhalation? Always exhale first. If you can't exhale, go for the purge, if you can't find the purge, cluck.

I did exhale to clear the regulator, obviously because the reg was inverted it didn't clear. I should never have gotten into the water without knowing where the purge button was, not a mistake I'll make again.

If you had asked me on the surface how to solve the problem, I could have answered with a several options without significant thought. However once my attempts to resolve the problem escalated the situation, I simply stopped thinking.
It wasn't any one thing that induced the panic and in the end I would say that the bubble interference from the freeflowing reg causing my mask to flood effectively blinding me was actually the trigger for the panic, not the immediate lack of air.

The next point is you should always practice with a new set up in the pool, beginning in shallow water. Practice, practice, practice. Once you have your alternatives to the point where they are second nature, you will react automatically and will not panic.

Absolutely and we were not diving an aggressive profile, 40ft was probably the deepest point of the dive. And the dive objective was to practice those skills.

One of the reasons I wanted to post this story, was to reinforce the point you raise.

I made a dumb mistake that I should have been able to easilly rectify, but I panicked. The story shows how dangerous panic is and how without regular practice of basic skills how easy it is for even simple problems to get out of hand.

 

[ERP]

Had the original poster ERP been an apnea enthusiast I doubt he would have panicked in the situation he described.

This is an interesting point and quite possibly true.

But I'm not really sure that the lack of air was what really triggered the panic, the mouthfuls of water certainly didn't help me think, but looking back at it after the fact. The mask flood was probably the event that actually triggered the panic, although on it's own it certainly wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[The Chairman]

between Scuba diving and Free diving. They both entail water, mask and fins, and there the similarities end.

Many things learned by a free diver have to be unlearned when Scuba is being taught. The notion that holding your breath is good seems to be the toughest. Nothing is more contra-indicated in Scuba than occluding your airway, which is what "breath holding" implies. Restricting the glottis in any manner can lead to your death. Don't do it!!! Barotrauma is real... life is tenuous.

My students are taught (actually, hammered would be a better term), to NEVER EVER HOLD THEIR BREATH UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! When the reg is out of their mouth I expect to see bubbles, or they get tapped gently on the cheek until I do. No exceptions! That is the most important part of the lesson on reg retrievals and air sharing. Especially on an ESA I MUST see bubbles or I stop the excersize.

When things start going south, your response needs to be automatic. Blowing fine bubbles is one of those things that I don't want my students to have to think about. I want it to be automatic. Having them learn apnea techniques in this situation would only confuse them and stops that reaction from being automatic. There should be no situation where breath holding would be merited.

Reg retrieval should take no more than 5 seconds. Train them till this is the case. Make sure they are blowing them thar tiny bubbles.

OOA/ Air sharing should take no more than 10 seconds. They should learn how to share in such a way that they give the reg correctly and do not hamper the diver from getting to the purge button. They need bubbles here too. Train them till they are NOT blue in the face.

Buddy breathing should take no more than 10 seconds to initiate. Bubbles should be seen coming from whomever does NOT have the reg in their mouth.

I stress physical contact under less than ideal situations. It has a calming effect. I incorporate that into all of my training.

 

[Groundhog246]

holdingmybreath once bubbled...
I guarantee you that if ever I run out of air at depth, I will not exhale while I'm trying to rectify the problem.

How long have you been Scuba diving? At 40 feet (the original poster) a 2 or 3 foot rise could easily be enough to cause an air embolism. If you can deal with a OOA, a mask flood and maintain near perfect buoyancy, you're a lot better than I am at the moment. Netdoc sounds like every instructor where I trained. The number ONE rule (mantra?) was "Keep breathing, NEVER hold your breath". We're not talking a fast exhale here, just a slow gentle bubbling that ensures your airway is open. You can't compare breathhold, freediving, to breathing compressed air at depth.

Of course, if you just exhaled normally and then got water, or no air, there's not going to be much to hold either.

 

[holdingmybreath]

But unless I'm ascending, I'm not giving up my oxygen. At 40' and a 3 foot rise you would need your lungs near full to cause a problem, which isn't the issue, because at 25' a 3' rise would be even more dangerous if you had full lungs or partially full lungs. Still, a 3' rise is ascending and I would be exhaling, or possibly attempting to keep the epiglotis open even if I had no air to exhale, at least no air until you near the surface. Wouldn't that be a fright! As I stated, I would not hold my breath on ascent. But why would I be ascending? I'd be staying right where I was remedying the problem. What if I was sinking, which is more likely. Remember, you are out of air, you can't hyperventilate and drastically change your bouyancy. More likely you got caught on an exhale, as was implied on the original post, and you will be more negative than not. I want my air. O.K. Everyone, the above is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. If you got caught on a full inhale, more likely you would be more bouyant and ascend, AND exhale. It is what I woud do - Remain calm, stay where I'm at, fix the problem - problem can't get fixed, do like ERP, swim to the surface, exhaling all the way.

Groundhog246 - on and off again for 25 years or so

 

[Uncle Pug]

ERP actually did quite well with the first few airsharing drills. We had gone over it in the parking lot with the gear on... and then again in the water. I had him do multiple switches between the primary and the backup. ERP even maintained buoyancy control and so~so trim during several air shares at 20'. But then fortuitously things went sideways for him.

Lest the reason he posted get lost in a discussion of apnea training:

"the point is there were two other working regulators available to me, the one around my neck, and the one in UP's mouth. At the time it never occured to me to use either,


It also really hammered home to me how important it is to be familiar with your equipment, and it's uses, you really need to practice OOA drills and any other safety drills (using the bungied backup in this case).

At no time was ERP OOA. He had a functional regulator (though upside down) and backup bungeed under his chin plus my primary ready for him. He had a buddy (who saw that he was putting the regulator in upside down and attempted to turn it over for him) but instead of using any of those resources... when he panicked... he bolted for the surface.

And the lesson was brought home indelibly:
"You really need to practice OOA drills!"

Not to feel bad though ERP... panic happens...

I remember Shane being left maskless and *OOA* while tangled in a line on the bottom in our Tech 1 class. His buddy (a certified techdiver and Instructor) donated his primary to Shane and then discover his own left post was rolled off and his backup was dead. Instead of reaching back and turning it on he bolted for the surface pulling the reg from Shane's mouth trailing it behind him. Shane didn't panic... he just put his back up into his mouth and waited.

Practice, practice, practice.

BTW... after a little chit chat on the surface ERP and I went back down for round two. He is even frog kicking now and hovers like a champ.

 

[Cave Diver]

ERP once bubbled...

Oh my buddy was right there looking at me. He just isn't a mind reader, he obviously saw me put the reg in upside down, and was ready to assist if I requested it. When he saw the reg go into freeflow, he figured I had air, and it was best just to let me resolve the situation rather than being proactive.

That reminds me of another scenario I was involved in. A buddy, who is also an instructor and has exceptional skills were taking an advanced class from another buddy of ours who is a tech instructor. During a pool session we had to perform drills, facing away from each other so that the scenario our buddy was in came as a surprise.

My buddy came to me with an OOA emergency and no mask. I immediately deployed my octo, but somehow it went past his outstretched hand, yet not quite to his mouth. Reaching for the regulator, his hands closed on my mask and tugged. Suddenly my mask his flooded and he is still out of air. As he let go of my mask realizing his mistake, I switched to my necklaced reg, and he made an ESA to the surface (in about 8' of water). It wasnt until I got my mask back on and cleared that I noticed that he and our instructor had surfaced.

Debriefing led us to the following conclusions:
1) He hadn't retained sufficient breath to make the swim to me AND signal out of air then wait for a response. Either he exhaled too fast during the swim, or he should have just taken my reg instead of waiting for me to donate it. (We dive long hose, necklaced secondary and practice this method)

2) I was not expecting him to have 2 emergencies (no mask, OOA) and the missing mask distracted me into pausing a few seconds before deploying my reg.

3) I didnt place the reg in his hand. Instead I placed it close to his face as we usually do during the drills. However with no mask on, his eyes were closed and he didnt see it.

4) After the Charlie Foxtrot of the regulator exchange, he headed to the surface, ignoring the necklaced reg around his OWN neck.

This exercise taught both of us a valuable lesson. First and foremost, is that even the simplest dive can go wrong. And just because your buddy is visible, doesn't mean they are close enough to help in an actual emergency. We also practice worst case scenarios now: Mutliple failures. As Mr. Murphy dictates, when it starts to roll down hill, it usually don't stop til it hits the bottom.

I am also proud to note that we both finished the class with no further hitches and I was given an opportunity to read the instructors course notes after the class.

"Both students have endevoured to increase their diving skill and knowledge by continuing their education including the completion of a recent DIRF class. One is also an instructor, the other cave certified and their skill and bouyancy control exceeds the requirements for this class."

Kinda made me all warm n fuzzy

But the moral of the story, no matter what your skill level, things can and do go wrong. Practice and training can't prepare you for every eventuality, but they can give you confidence in your skills that may just buy you that extra moment or two that you need to handle the problem.

Equally important, after a situation occurs, debrief with your dive partners. Analyze what happened, and why. What you did right, and what you could have done better. Good divers learn from their mistakes, the bad ones will continue to repeat them....

 

[ERP]

Not to feel bad though ERP... panic happens...

As I said in my initial post, I consider it to be a good learning experience. Having experienced the panic first hand, I think I would be in a better situation to control that panic and solve the problem next time.

It's too easy to get complacent when you don't have problems, and as I mentioned to you after the dive, it was nice to have a gentle reminder in a relatively controlled situation.

 

[Jonathan]

reminds me of my deco course. Sat on the hydro box at Stoney in the dark and cold. OOA exercise donated primary on long hose to my buddy and went for my backup. I was getting 80% water after signaling to my buddy for what seemed an age I grabbed my primary back out of her mouth.

For those that don't know Stoney that is about 33m and water temp of about 6 degrees so a little panic mixed in with a dose of narcosis.

What was wrong with my backup - freshly serviced and the technician (who is still a friend but it was close!) did not properly seal the diaphram. On the surface test if felt like it was breathing OK but I now know that I was not breathing off the tank!

Remedy - check your backup under water! In fact on twin diving I tend to enter the water using the backup to prevent it free flowing - still have not got over that and why won't they do what I ask and turn it down when I put it in for a service?!

As long as you live, you learn......


Jonathan