Understating Qualification on Charter Boats

[flots am]

1) If it is a "once in a lifetime dive", I am not going to leave it to chance. I will have a pre-determined buddy or I will hire a DM to be my buddy. If the DM is my buddy, then I will make sure with the shop/charter that no one else will be paired with us.

2) If it is a dive where I am going to be happy breathing compressed air at depth, then I really don't care if they buddy me with someone inexperienced. Yes, I have had the 15 minute dive and got back on the boat with 2300 psi because of my insta-buddy. It is a risk one runs when signing up for a charter alone.

3) In regards to the "lying" form, I put down the highest level of certification that I can prove (with the cert card) at that moment. I have also learned that many charters cringe when they see a DM or instructor card. Their side of the story is that too many "professionals" feel like their certification card allows them not to follow the boat's rules or guidelines set forth in the briefing.

1. Most new divers don't know this is desirable or even possible, and if properly taught and certified, shouldn't need it
2. I've never had a problem bringing a brand new diver back to the ladder, telling them I'm going to be under the boat, and making sure they got back on board OK. Under the boat is generally a pretty great dive if you stay still and quiet.
3. Never had a problem with that. If anything, it gets me fewer people checking to make sure "my air is on".

flots

 

[Mustard Dave]

I love the water taxi comments. In the US, and any where IMO regulations for passenger vessels apply (including the UK and 159 other signatory countries) the vessel operator is responsible for the safety of the passenger from the dock to the dock. Period. You can scream water taxi at the top of your lungs, but it just doesn't matter when you are facing the Administrative Law Judge, who does not need to follow any sort of legal precedent, by the way. If he thinks you're guilty, you are guilty. You don't get a chance for representation, either. The boat captain, and by extension, crew, have a duty of care to keep their passenger safe. Why we run dive boats, I'll never understand. To answer the OP, passengers do not owe a duty of care to any other passenger or to the vessel, regardless of certification lever. If the passenger is an emergency room physician and chooses not to help, they are not liable in any way. If they are the owner of a training agency with any card they want to print, they owe no duty of care. Don't get wrapped around the axle over nothing.

The taxi analogy is not incorrect. The skipper of a vessel has to comply with certain regulations, but then so does a taxi driver. A taxi driver must be licensed and has a duty of care to his fare paying passenger. The standards for a skipper are stricter, but the duty of care exists for anybody offering as service to paying customers.

The point of the taxi analogy is the skipper is better to concentrate on operating his vessel safely and keep out of the diving side of things. The vast majority of skippers in the UK do not ask to see cert cards. Many will ask you to sign a disclaimer saying you are suitably trained and fit for the dive, but they do not want to see cards. One of the reasons for this is by accepting a particular certification card, they are declaring the passenger is fit to dive.

We have all seen certified divers who make us wonder how the hell they got certified. If one of these got hurt diving from your boat - would you want them to stand in the witness box saying "Captain Wookie said I was capable of doing the dive."?

 

[Tigerman]

...
2) If it is a dive where I am going to be happy breathing compressed air at depth, then I really don't care if they buddy me with someone inexperienced. Yes, I have had the 15 minute dive and got back on the boat with 2300 psi because of my insta-buddy. It is a risk one runs when signing up for a charter alone.
...

I've had 15-minute dives with VERY experienced divers, resulting in us surfacing breathing of only my all but full tank, thanks to catastrophic gear failures.
**** happens, that's why you have a backup plan which in most normal rec dives would be a buddy or for tech divers means carrying bailout gas. The only guarantee you have is that if you dive enough, sooner or later the manure is going to hit the fan in some fashion or other..

 

[Wookie]

We have all seen certified divers who make us wonder how the hell they got certified. If one of these got hurt diving from your boat - would you want them to stand in the witness box saying "Captain Wookie said I was capable of doing the dive."?

Because of where AI am and what I do, I carry an in-water liability policy. It's the expensive part of my insurance suite of policies at $25k per year. My entire policy including 2 facilities, one in Key West and one in Lakewood, CO is $35k, so it is by far the most expensive part. The insurance company requires that I see a cert card for the level of dive I am offering. If it's a 130' single tank numpty dive, I can see an OW card. If a trip where a deco gas is allowed/proper, than an Advanced Nitrox card. And if trimix, than the appropriate trimix card, rebreather card, etc.

Folks who get hurt while diving from my boat tend not to stand in the witness box, they tend to send their surviving heirs instead. As long as I meet the requirements of the insurance company (properly filled out waiver and verification of certification card), they will spend up to a million bucks defending me. So, yes, I don't care if they stand in the witness bos and say "Captain Wookie said I was properly certified to conduct the dive". As we all know, capability doesn't really enter into it.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Because of where AI am and what I do, I carry an in-water liability policy. It's the expensive part of my insurance suite of policies at $25k per year. My entire policy including 2 facilities, one in Key West and one in Lakewood, CO is $35k, so it is by far the most expensive part. The insurance company requires that I see a cert card for the level of dive I am offering. If it's a 130' single tank numpty dive, I can see an OW card. If a trip where a deco gas is allowed/proper, than an Advanced Nitrox card. And if trimix, than the appropriate trimix card, rebreather card, etc.

Folks who get hurt while diving from my boat tend not to stand in the witness box, they tend to send their surviving heirs instead. As long as I meet the requirements of the insurance company (properly filled out waiver and verification of certification card), they will spend up to a million bucks defending me. So, yes, I don't care if they stand in the witness bos and say "Captain Wookie said I was properly certified to conduct the dive". As we all know, capability doesn't really enter into it.

If it's an insurer's requirement, then obviously you have to comply. If the insurer is prepared to indemnify you, then there is nothing to worry about. It does not invalidate my comment - it is just a different party that is exposing themselves unnecessarily.

Folks who get hurt while diving from my boat tend not to stand in the witness box, they tend to send their surviving heirs instead.

That is rather worrying.

 

[Tigerman]

...
That is rather worrying.

Why? The people who get HURT know better than to blame him, people grieving may not..
Its just a fact of life that if you deal with enough customers for a long enough time period, some of them will die while in your store/on your boat/in your hotel room.
Its not fun when it happens, but its inevitable. Could be an accident, could be natural causes, could be self inflicted - but the family is still going to be grieving and some might do and say unrational things due to it while others may tray to make a few bucks from it...

 

[Mustard Dave]

Why? The people who get HURT know better than to blame him, people grieving may not..
Its just a fact of life that if you deal with enough customers for a long enough time period, some of them will die while in your store/on your boat/in your hotel room.
Its not fun when it happens, but its inevitable. Could be an accident, could be natural causes, could be self inflicted - but the family is still going to be grieving and some might do and say unrational things due to it while others may tray to make a few bucks from it...

Because the comment states divers who gets hurt on his boat tend to die. It suggests this is the norm rather than an occasional tragedy.

 

[Wookie]

Haven't really had anyone hurt in a long time, although there was that IPE 2 years ago. Folks get hurt on other boats. We aren't immune, just careful.

---------- Post added July 31st, 2014 at 07:30 PM ----------

Because the comment states divers who gets hurt on his boat tend to die. It suggests this is the norm rather than an occasional tragedy.

I guess you are right. We don't really have very many get hurt, but I have returned 3 bodies to shore in 15 years. Happens when you carry over 1,000 passengers per year. Hurt, not so much.

 

[mathauck0814]

I guess you are right. We don't really have very many get hurt, but I have returned 3 bodies to shore in 15 years. Happens when you carry over 1,000 passengers per year. Hurt, not so much.

Dead is a lot more likely than hurt IMO. Esp. for boats like Frank's and the one I crew on occasionally that transport expedition teams.

--

I believe the boat in LA that I'm thinking of has the same insurance provider as Frank, I'll have to ask the Captain next time I see him what his rationale is for not asking to see cert cards as he's presumably under the same restrictions as the Spree.

 

[Wookie]

Dead is a lot more likely than hurt IMO. Esp. for boats like Frank's and the one I crew on occasionally that transport expedition teams.

--

I believe the boat in LA that I'm thinking of has the same insurance provider as Frank, I'll have to ask the Captain next time I see him what his rationale is for not asking to see cert cards as he's presumably under the same restrictions as the Spree.

I would be interested in that answer. I have Willis, and was told by the now former agent that many of the California boats had dropped their in-water liability due to expense, and "silly" insurance company requirements, and because they think they are a water taxi. Willis had also dropped a number of California boats for the latter reason. They refused to comply with insurance company requirements.

One strategy to avoid doing what the insurance company requires is to not have insurance. There is a whole strategy behind that, as in, keep the boat mortgaged to the hilt. The First Preferred Ships Mortgage holder has the first claim in the vessel regardless of what the courts do, so winning a dive boat (or any other kind of boat) can be a hollow win if the asset is valueless to the winner of a suit. The Captain must hold their personal assetts in a trust so that they are protected also. I know a number of boat owners who do this and don't carry in-water liability insurance. My in-water liability is also my contractors general liability, so I have other reasons to keep the policy in place.