Undercurrent--"Why Divers Die"

[OHGoDive]

The ability to perform diving tasks or not seems like it should correlate well to the risk of diving.

The reasonable question here is, how does obesity effect one's ability to perform diving related tasks.

I don't think this is the real question though. You're correct that the ability to perform tasks well is related to ones risk of a dive accident.

But, the question as I read it, is whether or not obesity-related accidents (predominantly heart attacks), are killing significant numbers of divers. Or, causing them to have other dive-related accidents in conjunction with the obesity-related event.

Skills don't really come into play if I have a heart attack in the water.

This is the risk that they are trying to point out, and people do have some, but not by a long shot, total control over this.

 

[Cacia]

yea, I'd agree with that, Rachel.

you're smart.---that is applied logic, IMO.

(even if you like Pitt Bulls)

 

[wreckchick]

I knew that stupid class in college would come in handy at some point!

Rachel

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm not sure. Certainly there can be overlap on causes or contributing factors. If I'm a new diver at 60fsw and have a coronary event, I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to control my bouyancy regardless of my skill level. So, if I end up injured, was it due to poor skills (being unable to control my bouyancy), or the initial coronary event, or both?

True. While I have observations, I don't have numbers either. However, I'm not the one presenting number to the public claiming that a statistical inference can be drawn from them either.

I don't think that you can control good health (any more than you can mandate good habits), but you can sure educate people that they can and do have control over it. Efforts to diminish the effect of poor physical health on divers is just as bad as trying to diminish the effect of poor skills on divers.

You can't mandate good skills to divers at large but you can mandate them to divers in training. That's not being done and I'm willing to take a stab at demonstrating that, in, the water on about any day and anyplace training is taking place. I'd be more than please to take a randomly selected group of divers and administer a very simple skill evaluation that might be very telling.

The cause of far too many diving accidents seems to be right in our face and just about as obvious as a slap in the face. The fact that the industry and divers in general don't seem to be able to see it just about floors me. It's not because they don't eat well, it's because they don't dive well.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

How about this: Obesity is ONE contributing factor, out of many, that may result in injury or fatality while participating in tasks that cause undue or unaccustomed exertion. In an underwater, and/or overhead environment, with a limited air source and limited communications, the risk of every contributing factor may be magnified and result in fatality.

 

[Charlie59]

I would say that you are wrong Mike. In Australia they limit divers with a need to be certified medically. Some sort of certification to indicate you are fit to dive would not be a bad idea in this country, certainly pilots have to submit to this.

And no, the article says obesity is the chief cause of death.

 

[OHGoDive]

How about this: Obesity is ONE contributing factor, out of many, that may result in injury or fatality while participating in tasks that cause undue or unaccustomed exertion. In an underwater, and/or overhead environment, with a limited air source and limited communications, the risk of every contributing factor may be magnified and result in fatality.

Yea, that's what I got out of the article.

I don't think you need to legislate or govern people out of diving though. As it's been stated here, people know they're overweight, know what might happen, and dive anyway. It's their choice and they should continue to be able to make it.

If you start excluding divers who display some risk factor in their behavior or physical makeup, the water will be pretty empty.

 

[gangrel441]

I would say that you are wrong Mike. In Australia they limit divers with a need to be certified medically. Some sort of certification to indicate you are fit to dive would not be a bad idea in this country, certainly pilots have to submit to this.

And no, the article says obesity is the chief cause of death.

Well, now....you may have just found the means to prove...or disporve....your point. Since you know of a demographic region where medical fitness certification is required, it would seem to me all you have to do is cross-reference diving accident statistics in Australia with those in comparable environs which have no such restrictions. I eagerly await the results...

 

[SteveAD]

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire, how about a theory that underweight people are at greater risk. Persons with low body mass are much more prone to hypothermia. Even in a top quality wetsuit in the usually <50 degreeF water we have in New England I have seen many small divers incapacitated by hypothermia to the point that they had to be stripped out of their suit by someone else (the diver was incapable). A few more minutes in the water and these people might not have been able to keep their own face out of the water.

Yes of course there are risks involved in diving. And yes nearly all of us have some factor that increases our personal risk. But we're (almost) all adults here and anyone who says "you shouldn't dive" or "he/she shouldn't dive" is out of line. The only one to determine whether or not a given person should be diving is that person (with the advice advice of their physician).

If I feel that a person is an unsafe diver, then I am perfectly free to refuse to dive with them, but that's where it ends.

Our two biggest social problems are political correctness and lawsuit fever. So many people are devoting so much effort to avoid offending anyone that there is no way they can get anything done.

What we need is to get back to a culture that expects personal responsibility.

Well I can dream can't I?

 

[in_cavediver]

I call this theory flawed until anyone can show the corollation and confidence of the conclusions. I don't doubt obesity can play a role, I just don't think its the 'key' factor in the discussion (or even of major significance compared to other factors)

Ultimately, we when look at dive accidents, we have only a few true causes.
1) Act of God
2) Diver Error (at some level)
3) Catastrophic Equipment malfuntion (IE, when no dive skills could prevent injury)

OK, in the above scenario, only 1 rates as a true 'accident' and that the Act of God. The rest have some level of human interaction. If you do everything right, and still get to #3, you are likely looking at injury rather than death. It happens, kinda the Act of God thing. The rest fall into Diver error.

So what causes Diver Error. My opinion, from reading several years of DAN reports, seeing students in the water and seeing divers locally, is a lack of fundemental dive skills and moreover, divers who cannot make an accurate risk assessment of the dive and thier skills. Essentially, divers who are undertrained/underprepared for the dives they plan to do.

When you take underprepared divers, throw them into an evironment that takes all of their skills and then some, you will start to see different stressors come into play to trigger an accident. Can you say that it was only water temperature, night/darkness, Obesity, overwieghting, underwieghting, surge, current, or equipment failure that was the one causal factor for the accident - NO. Its a combination of them all to differnt degrees. From what I read in this thread, many are attacking one stressor (obesity), which is argueably the hardest for many people to address. We should really be looking to elimate/reduce the other causal agents that are much easier to deal with.

But alas, its much easier to claim overwieght people are a danger to everyone around them than it is to admit most divers need more training/guidance than they have, even though they have a C card that says they have enough.