Undercurrent--"Why Divers Die"

[OHGoDive]

But how does that relate to your assertion that an overweight dive buddy is a liability? Would you prefer a slim dive buddy with inadequate skills?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Depends. If I get in trouble, I want the best trained buddy available. The size of their waist is not a criteria.

On the other hand, if I'm doing a simple recreational dive at 40 fsw for 45 minutes and I evaluate the risks that I will have to rescue said buddy, I think I'd prefer the slim dive buddy with inadequate skills. Why? Because if I do an honest risk assessment, it's more likely my obese buddy is going to arrest in that 45 minutes than my slim buddy is going to do anything even remotely life-threatening during that 45 minutes that would put himself or me in jeopardy. And I would prefer not to have to attempt a rescue on a large person in full arrest at 40 feet. Purely statistics (and self-preservation).

Realistically, it wouldn't matter to me, because I don't think the risk is that great in either case. Statistics again.

If you were betting on 1000 40 fsw dives, where would you put your money? The morbidly obese guy carrying a lot of lead, lifting tanks, climbing ladders on a hot day having a heart attack or the slim guy dying due to AGE because he had lousy bouyancy control?

I know where my money would be.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Realistically, it wouldn't matter to me, because I don't think the risk is that great in either case. Statistics again.

That's pretty much my take on this whole issue ... yes, there's a greater risk, but it's severely outweighed (pun intended) by other factors.

If you were betting on 1000 40 fsw dives, where would you put your money? The morbidly obese guy carrying a lot of lead, lifting tanks, climbing ladders on a hot day having a heart attack or the slim guy dying due to AGE because he had lousy bouyancy control?

I know where my money would be.

Depends on what you mean by "morbidly obese" ... the article uses a BMI over 30 as a criteria ... that would include a whole bunch of people who most likely could outlast you and me combined in a test of stamina.

That's my whole objection to the article ... the brush is too broad. All it does is reinforce stereotypes ... like the ones you use in your description in the quoted paragraph ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Sorry, the article I quoted said only 45% were obese. This is way better. When I took math that was over half. Seems like smoke, even if no fire.

THe probelm, as was discussed earlier, is that 55% in that study are not really obese. They are obese according to the BMI. After that study was published, DAN was challenged on its assumption that the BMI figures are accurate. In the November/December 2005 edition of Alert Diver, DAN responded to that challenge.

In a direct response to a letter to the editor (mine) on pages 5-6, the editor said that they have since learned that the BMI is very controversial and can be inaccurate with "sports enthusiasts." They also include an article that assesses different methods of determining fitness on pages 44-45. It includes this quote:

Body Mass Index (BMI), less commonly known as the Quetelet Index, is the simplest scale used to predict body composition. The word "predict" is used intentionally, since BMI is not a measure of body composition at all: it is simply a computation based on stature (height) and mass (weight) that is used to assign individuals to catgegories of body fatness.

BMI predictions are useful for large-scale studies when more sophisticated measures are unavailable, but the predictioons are often very poor on an individual basis. The assumption that increasing BMI values indicate increased fatness is often not valid: BMI values will increase whether the extra mass is due to fat or muscle. Individuals with well-developed muscle mass are penalized by this method (44).

If you are doing a sample of the population at large, and you discover that 55% of the population has a BMI indicating obesity, you still do not know how many are obese and how many are simple "sports enthusiasts" who have developed muscle mass beyond the very wimpy level that is the BMI starting point.

Scuba divers are not the population as a whole. I think it is safe to say that the population of divers will have a much higher percentage of "sports enthusiasts" than the general population.

I am not saying that there is no harm in being obese. I am not saying that it is not beneficial to be fit. In fact, I work pretty hard to stay fit. If I were to have a dive accident, though, it would fall into the "overweight, nearly obese" category by BMI standards, and that is simply not accurate.

 

[OHGoDive]

... which claims that smoking is the number one cause of death in America (those statistics are 6 years old, however) ...

And weight related causes were a very close second and closing rapidly. In 2000.

Actually, according to the OP, the article asserts that being overweight makes you a liability as a dive buddy.

In certain scenarios, it could.

No argument with that statement ... but the title of this thread is "Why Divers Die". Being overweight is only one risk factor ... and if you were to take a serious look at the causes for diving accidents, it's not one of the leading causes for diver death.

If I recall, the article was an installment and dealt with a number of the reasons. This particular month was specific to obesity and fitness. I don't think it was the only reason presented. I might be wrong though.

Writing an article titled "Why Divers Die" and making the inference that it's because they're overweight is just sensationist "journalism" to my concern ... it doesn't do much to address the real issue of diver safety. Fitness and health are two important factors ... but obesity is only one aspect of fitness and health that should be discussed in that respect. And not necessarily the most important.

Fair enough, the titling could be deemed a bit sensational, but, as I said, I do think the series looked at other causes of death, and presented them. Just not in this months article.

What about smoking? What about exercise? Can you tell by looking at someone how healthy they really are? Or what shape their heart's in?

Perhaps not, but, by seeing that cigarette dangling or a 56" waist, you can certainly make a much better educated guess. And be right more times than not, I suspect.

 

[OHGoDive]

That's pretty much my take on this whole issue ... yes, there's a greater risk, but it's severely outweighed (pun intended) by other factors.


Depends on what you mean by "morbidly obese" ... the article uses a BMI over 30 as a criteria ... that would include a whole bunch of people who most likely could outlast you and me combined in a test of stamina.

That's my whole objection to the article ... the brush is too broad. All it does is reinforce stereotypes ... like the ones you use in your description in the quoted paragraph ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree, there are way too many factors involved in any situation related to health and fitness. If the article was trying to say that this was the one, singular, definitive risk, then it's wrong. But, I didn't read it that way, and it doesn't seem as if others diid either.

I wasn't trying to be stereotypical, just moving to the far end of the scale (sorry, my turn for a bad pun) to demonstrate my point. Apologies if it offended anyone.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Actually, unless Mike Ferrara took a slide, I doubt his BMI is over 25.

Remeber, those of use who disagree with the article and its strongest supporters due so not out of the belief the obese=healthy but that obesity isn't the causal factor its made out to be.

I'm personally take Bob's advice and going diving. - Mike get the chainsaw, its warming up to the teens in a day or two and I've not been diving in a while.

According to the online calculators, my BMI is about 22, thank you very much. LOL I've been back to shoeing horses for a while now so I've gotten younger.

The chain saw is tuned up and ready. Or...we could just make a trip to Missouri where the water never freezes.

 

[Cacia]

To be honest folks...medical people can vouch for the fact that they can "just look at people" to a certain degree. I can spot a heavy drinker by the bulbous nose and broken veins, the red face, the fluid around the abdomen ( It is not polite to SAY these things...but many conditions are spotted pretty accurately.)

Obesity alters the normal hormonal environment of a man's body. These men have more estrogen (I think fat produces some forms) and the weight distribution changes from the testosterone "picture" to breast fat and more weight carried at the hips.
I take issue with the comment that you cannot tell much by looking at a person.

The stereotype of someone who looks like "a heart attack waiting to happen" evolved because there is some truth to it that red-faced, overweight, veins bulging individuals are at risk. I realize this is sensitive to say and does not construe a diagnosis, but to deny that physicians use appearances to order certain tests would be untrue.

We really lose our scientific objectivity when we accuse people attempting to explore health risks as bashing fat people, IMO.

A medically informed person could look at me and see certain things that indicate pre-menopausal "signs" for example and conclude that I am at an increased risk for CV disease, than say looking at me ten years ago...it's just a fact. There are certain signs in our physicality---all of us-- that are red flags for facing our ever-changing health risks. It only becomes personal if the individual does not choose to acknowledge the inevidable handwriting on the wall and feels attacked in some way.

I am certain I could write a long list of physical signs that an astute physician would see and draw inferences from, regarding my physical condition and most people on this board. You can make some reasonable inferences about a person's condition just by looking, I contend. You have to go no further than McDonalds parking lot to see this, if you are open to it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I wasn't trying to be stereotypical, just moving to the far end of the scale (sorry, my turn for a bad pun) to demonstrate my point. Apologies if it offended anyone.

Oh ... nothing about this conversation offends me. If I didn't agree that losing weight would make me healthier I wouldn't be working so hard at it. I just object to the overall tone of the article, and some of the suggestions in this thread as to what it means.

But you have to ask yourself ... wouldn't it be better to encourage those overweight friends to get into diving? After all, if they're underwater they're not on the sofa watching TV ... diving's a great motivator in that respect ... what got me into a daily workout routine was the decision to get into technical diving.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OHGoDive]

To be honest folks...medical people can vouch for the fact that they can "just look at people" to a certain degree.

We really lose our scientific objectivity when we accuse people attempting to explore health risks as bashing fat people, IMO.

I am certain I could write a long list of physical signs that an astute physician would see and draw inferences from...

I hope that this instinct does not get "trained out" of medical people in the hopes of making them "correct". It seems that if we try to say that we cannot draw inferences from the things that apply to most, simply because they do not apply to all, we've lost a valuable tool in educating people to real, correctable, risks.

Sure, the physically unfit guy may outlive us all, but, it's not likely, and we're not doing anyone any favors by giving people a reason to emulate him. No matter how sensitive we're being.

But you have to ask yourself ... wouldn't it be better to encourage those overweight friends to get into diving? After all, if they're underwater they're not on the sofa watching TV ... diving's a great motivator in that respect

Agreed. Anything that motivates a person to get more active is a plus in my book.

But, just be careful. Diving is a physical activity. It's risky for someone who is not physically fit to participate in a strenous activity without knowing their risks and limitations. Oops... I sound like the Undercurrent article

 

[CraigDiver]

I think the only people you will find to disagree with this article are going to be fat people. Obesity kills more people a year than anything else diver or not.

You are talking complete b0110cks, smoking related illnesses kill more people by far than obesity.

Get your facts right:no

CraigDiver