Unacknowledged subtext in fill pricing

[flots am]

Took them to a dive shop in the north Atlanta area to get filled. Dropped them off and went on my merry way. Got a call shortly thereafter informing me that the tanks "are bone dry!" I said, "Of course they are. They've just been hydroed and cleaned."

The shop associate then informed me that they would not fill the tanks because THEY had not performed the VTI.

I replied, "Well, then I'll just come back over, get my tanks and have them filled somewhere else."

And I did.

They don't trust you.

You say you're certified to service the tanks, but from their perspective, those stickers could have come from a Happy Meal.

Their compressor, their rules.

flots.

 

[kelemvor]

In my area... (Norway... ) usually the shops have a "fill card". My "go to" shop charges around $200 for a years worth of air or banked 32% as you can possibly use.

My shop sells fill cards up to 40% mix. $250 for 25 fills or 10 bucks a fill for nitrox, and I usually end up with around 140cuft of gas per tank.

On the other hand I paid Silent World in Key Largo, FL. USA $22 for a 30% fill that only went to about 3000psi or 122cuft.

---------- Post added July 5th, 2014 at 01:09 PM ----------

I replied, "Well, then I'll just come back over, get my tanks and have them filled somewhere else."

And I did.

Money grubbin sods . . . .

That's the right move. Not the first time I've seen a post on scubaboard where shop owners were having tantrums over customers also shopping elsewhere.

 

[redacted]

Their compressor, their rules.

flots.

All we can do is help them get their "going out of business" sale started and hope it makes way for a better shop.

 

[Bob DBF]

Originally Posted by oldschooltool
I had the guy at penn camp dive shop tell me that he was going to charge me for a " VIP " because the tank only had 200psi on return... Told me he had to check for water in the tank I just looked at him with a smile and said... " I'd love to see you put water in through the valve of a tank at 10 psi "
Jim...

Actually, he could do that quite easily; with a bit of water in his fill connector (or elsewhere in his system). .

If the shops equipment and procedures are so bad that the fill connector or system has water in it, having 1500# in the tank won't keep water out of it either. The point is that there is no way you can accidentally pour water in the tank if it is pressurized.

You can get water in your tank if you work at it hard enough, but why would you want to screw up your own tank?



Bob
----------------------
"That is not the [-]droid[/-] shop you're looking for."

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Presumably you guys lost a big social aspect as well.

Yes, we did ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[drrich2]

A recent article in Undercurrent had people indicated fills are 'under-priced.' If that's the case, then they will not reduce the average price of fills. If they're giving out smaller fills to top off partially filled tanks, then it'll be at high cost/cf to make up the difference.

In the U.S., a number of people like the fixed cost 'all you can eat buffet' model where you know what something is going to cost. If a fill is $7, I know what getting a couple of tanks filled is going to cost. Neither the shop guy nor the fill device need concern themselves with start & end pressures, or metering volume of gas dispensed and calculating a value.

Okay, here's the angle I think is easy to miss in looking at this issue:

That would ENCOURAGE divers to bring the tank back half full, instead of empty; I think it would enhance safety.

Now, we could split hairs about whether 'rewarding good behavior' is basically the flip side of punishing bad behavior that you don't like (particularly likely if the total air fill income for the shop will be maintained to price adjustments), but however we pitch the idea, it basically amounts to (in my opinion), that...

You want to change the shop fill pricing/policy to exert pressure to change diver behavior to be more in line with that you believe is a better, safer way.

The shops are businesses trying to make money. If they're not going to net more income under this system, and it adds complexity and hassles and annoys some customers, they're not going to do it.

I understand that you are concerned the current system, same price for any fraction of a tank, may encourage divers to 'get their money's worth' by breathing down to lower PSIs in recreational diving, but that raises another question for everyone...

How often have you personally, or someone you were directly aware of, deliberately dove on a rather low gas tank when you would've instead have gotten it filled if the fill were sold per cubic foot? Also, if this happened, in the context of the dive performed, was the difference in tank gas enough to be credibly likely to have made a significant difference in diver safety on that dive?

Richard.

 

[Brandon]

How often have you personally, or someone you were directly aware of, deliberately dove on a rather low gas tank when you would've instead have gotten it filled if the fill were sold per cubic foot? Also, if this happened, in the context of the dive performed, was the difference in tank gas enough to be credibly likely to have made a significant difference in diver safety on that dive?

I do it all the time while shore diving in double 100s, and that was my concern when the local shop threatened to switch to a flat rate fill system. Here's why:

First, let's throw out some baseline info:

• Nitrox was priced at $.175 a CF.
• The new flat-rate pricing was $30 for a set of Double 100s.

In the winter my buddies and I often elect to do one long (70+ minute) dive. In 38F water, it seems a heck of a lot more comfortable to get wet only once, instead of freezing your butt off in between dive 1 and 2. It's pretty typical for me to only use around 1200 PSI of gas on that 70 minute dive. If I started with 3400, that leaves me with 2200 PSI. More than enough to go the following day, or I could save it for the next weekend.

If it's a flat rate pricing system, there's no way in hell I'm returning a set of doubles at 2200 PSI ($.43 a CF??!!??) - they're going for at least another dive or two. Even when I paid by the CF, I usually wouldn't return at 2200PSI unless the next weekend was a boat diving weekend, or if I had a particularly deep and long dive planned.

So, to continue on - the next dive day I do the same dive as before in the same set of doubles and use another 1200 PSI; I now have 1000 PSI left.

At 1000 PSI, it's definitely time to think about filling them up again. That fill from 1000 PSI (~140CF), with the flat rate math the shop wanted to use would cost me $30, or $.215 per CF. At the old price, I would have paid $24.50. Is it a huge difference? No... but because it irritated me to begin with (because it keeps me from topping off my 2200 PSI doubles without paying an exorbitant amount), I can almost guarantee I'd elect to do a 30 minute shallow skills dive on 1000 PSI and fill them when they're between 300-500 PSI. Or flip the valves open for a bit.

Also, if this happened, in the context of the dive performed, was the difference in tank gas enough to be credibly likely to have made a significant difference in diver safety on that dive?

Without a doubt; whenever you have less total gas available the dive is inherently more risky and demands a greater level of conservatism. The details are going to vary with your training and that of your team; but I can assure you that I'll be adjusting the dive plan substantially.

 

[drrich2]

Even when I paid by the CF, I usually wouldn't return at 2200PSI unless the next weekend was a boat diving weekend, or if I had a particularly deep and long dive planned.

I think this is important, but I'm going to hit it from a single tank recreational diver angle. Getting a tank filled, topped off, what have you, involves loading it up, driving to the shop, hauling it in, handing it off and picking it up. Okay, figuring a recreational diver who could get a 'all you can eat' fill for $7, I'm thinking if his tank is so full he's even asking whether it's worth it, so even if sold by the cubic foot, I'm guessing topping off would cost $5.

Is the $2 savings to fill that tank really going to change his behavior much, taken in the context of all the hassles getting the thing filled?

Without a doubt; whenever you have less total gas available the dive is inherently more risky and demands a greater level of conservatism. The details are going to vary with your training and that of your team; but I can assure you that I'll be adjusting the dive plan substantially.

Your adjustments should hopefully negate any added risk.

I think TS&M is suggesting some divers may go do roughly the same dive they were going to anyway (for sake of argument, let's just say 45 minutes, multilevel, average depth 20 - 25 feet, max. depth 60 feet at some point, cool water, in a wet suit, no NDL violations), but starting with a lower amount of gas because they don't want to pay full fill price for a partial fill.

From what I'm told on this forum, many tech. divers plan out, and then dive, their dive in detail. But many recreational divers take a looser approach - swim around, plan to hang out around a given depth with option to go a little deeper if you see something special, be back on shore or the boat with at least 500 PSI (for example). Such a diver will likely just dive 35 minutes instead of 45 if he starts out with, oh, say, 2400 PSI instead of 3000 (I'm making up numbers; apologies if the math doesn't work).

So, if the dive shop sold air by the cubic foot, what is the projected likely regional impact on recreational diver safety? Significant? I specify recreational because she posted:

As I was thinking about what we have lost, and why I mourn it, one of the biggest things I identified was that, with SA, you paid for the gas you used.

This is not uncommon in technical shops, but in my experience, it is almost unheard of in recreational dive stores. In most places, if you bring a tank in to get a 500 psi top-off, you will pay the same as if you had brought the tank back with 100 psi in it.

 

[Brandon]

I'd venture so far as to say it's almost a moot point - your average recreational diver isn't capable of the gas management / dive planning necessary to confidently use a partially full single cylinder and probably isn't even in the position where doing so is an option.

The above average recreational divers and most technical divers are keenly aware of gas management, so they notice little intricacies like how a flat rate or per CF fill structure may affect their diving habits.

The question is whether or not those advanced divers will adjust their diving habits when faced with changing to a flat rate fill system from a per CF fill system. If I were dealing with a flat rate system, I'd probably do a lot more of those short and shallow 1000 PSI skills dives. Are they less safe? Sure, but if things go to plan the additional risks are easily managed. But what if they don't go to plan? Would you rather have 18 CF of gas to resolve the problem, or 150 CF?

I'd much rather have the 150 CF option as often as possible, and if the shops can come up with a fill policy that gives me some flexibility with how I choose to fill my cylinders, that's the ideal solution.

Flat rate won't work for everyone; especially doubles divers.
CF rate is better, but more labor intensive.
Hybrid rate is fairest for all involved, but math-heavy and difficult to set up.

Another possibility is a flat rate based on the maximum CF dispensed. This is what I proposed locally:

• Up to 100CF - $15
• Up to 130CF - $20
• Up to 200CF - $30
• Up to 230CF - $35
• Up to 260CF - $40
• Add $5 if below 500 PSI.

That idea was rejected at my old shop, but I don't think the owner had any reasonable basis to do so. He claimed he'd lose money doing it that way - I actually charted out all possible fill pressure combinations and showed that he still came out ahead vs. the old rate ($.175 per CF old, something like $.22 per CF average on my proposal), and that it was all around better than the $30 for double 100s, or $15 for single 100 rate he came up with (which had an average of something like $.26 a CF).

He ended up going back to a per CF rate and just kicked it up to $.20 per CF. He would have made more money with my idea and it would have greatly simplified things. Oh well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'd venture so far as to say it's almost a moot point - your average recreational diver isn't capable of the gas management / dive planning necessary to confidently use a partially full single cylinder and probably isn't even in the position where doing so is an option.

Oh, they're completely capable ... I've been producing consistently positive results in that respect for more than a decade. The reason why most recreational divers don't do it is because they're constantly being told that it isn't necessary ... or it's too hard ... and so they don't even try. The failure isn't with the "average recreational diver" ... it's with the people who train them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)