Ultima Dry Glove System question
- Thread starter Basking Ridge Diver
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Degenerate
Contributor
I have the Sitech quick neck on my WP D7X and honestly it's great.
I have not felt or noticed the ring a single time in the 15 dives I've had the suit, and I'll take a silicone seal with a ring over a traditional glued latex one every day of the week.
The only slight beef I got with my silicone wrist seals is that a ring system is needed for them to work (can't be glued if I'm not misinformed?)
The rings are sometimes a little bit in the way when manipulating the valves on my tanks but as time has gone by it's started to feel more of a problem with technique rather than gear.
Still a little bit annoying, but I LOVE my Ultima with the Showa 720s and I wouldn't want to change my Sitech quick neck for a traditional latex one even if I was held at gunpoint.
Then again I got mine brand new straight from the factory just when the D7X Nylotech was launched at the start of Dec last year so it's definitely not an older model of the neck ring, perks of living within a short drive from the WP factory and a slight bit longer drive from Sitech
Deep South Divers
Contributor
You're not misinformed. That's accurate. Silicone won't hold glue - so it can't be glued on. Therefore, to get silicone seals, some sort of ring has to be used.
The Quick Neck and QCS Ovals are great options.
DRIS is running about 4-5 weeks worth of work on hand. Dive buddy from Ohio had me drop his suit at DRIS after our Toby trip last weekend so he could save postage one way. Just getting neck and wrist seal systems installed. He won’t have his suit back for 5 weeks. They are VERY busy. Buddy doesn’t need his suit back until the fall, which is lucky for him. DRIS is only taking a very limited number of “front of line” requests, as well.
The PU ring (flexible suite side ring) can be obtained and glued in to the suit without needing to purchase the entire QCS oval setup. This is practical if one plans on purchasing the Ultima DGS because the hard si-tech rings that make the wrist system oval are removed and replaced with a round hard ring from the Ultima system. Most of us install the Ultima system and leave it in place whether using the dry glove side or when diving with wet gloves.
-Z
-Z
Leto
Registered
Hi SeaJay, I'm also diving without wrist seals now (Kubi / Showa 720). Really love the ease of donning/doffing and warm hands.
The combination of the Kubi's with the 720's feels very bombproof. However have you thought about restricting water intake in case of a big glove failure (large tear, glove pop off, ..) I'm not doing deco dives but the prospect of 4-6c water rushing into my suit still bothers me a bit.
I was thinking about using velcro leg/ankle straps in case of a big failure on the affected lower arm. Do you, or other people diving without seals, have any thoughts or other suggestions on this?
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Deep South Divers
Contributor
Nope.
The tear reaistance of nitrile exceeds the tear resistance of trilaminate material.
Specifically, the SHOWA 720 has an EN388 tear resistance of 4 out of 6, which is an amazingly high number - and the highest number I've seen in a drysuit glove. For more info on EN388 hazard reaistance numbers, see this link: https://www.hsimagazine.com/article/en388-standard-469
In other words... If you wanted to keep a strap like that to provide a solution in case of a catastrophic suit flood, it'd be more for the possibility of tearing your drysuit than for tearing a glove... Since that would be a bigger failure point.
My solution to the possibilty of tearing a suit has been twofold:
1. Dive a suit made of hypercompressed or crushed neoprene (not "compressed" neoprene). I dive the BARE Sentry, which I helped design for BARE and is newly available to the public. Only it and the DUI CF200 use this type of material, which is by far the toughest, most tear resistant fabric available in a drysuit. Prior to the Sentry, I dove the BARE XCS2, which uses a very similar and tough fabric.
2. Maintain proper bouyancy throughout the dive. The best way to prevent damage to any drysuit is to stay off of sharp things.
So far, it's working. I've got something like 1,200 hours underwater over the past couple years in hypercompressed neoprene drysuits equipped with SHOWA 720s, cleaning oysters and barnacles off of boat bottoms, cutting pilings with chainsaws, reciprocating saws, and angle grinders, and doing salvage work (where there's always sharp edges). I can count on one hand how many times I've holed a glove - which I usually don't know about until I doff the glove. I've never holed a hypercompressed neo suit, even though I've bumped and scraped and damaged them plenty. I've never torn either or experienced a catastrophic flood - regardless of whether I had wrist seals intact or removed (cut back).
If you're doing staged decompression, you're probably diving a wrist computer like a Shearwater or something similar. The computer has either bungees or elastic straps that hold it in place. If you were to suffer a catasrophic flood, in an emergency you could use those to help block additional suit flooding... Just move the computer to the affected limb and end the dive.
If you're not doing staged decompression, simply surface and end the dive.
...But so far - in the worst of conditions - I haven't experienced it.
...So no, I don't bother with a strap.
The tear reaistance of nitrile exceeds the tear resistance of trilaminate material.
Specifically, the SHOWA 720 has an EN388 tear resistance of 4 out of 6, which is an amazingly high number - and the highest number I've seen in a drysuit glove. For more info on EN388 hazard reaistance numbers, see this link: https://www.hsimagazine.com/article/en388-standard-469
In other words... If you wanted to keep a strap like that to provide a solution in case of a catastrophic suit flood, it'd be more for the possibility of tearing your drysuit than for tearing a glove... Since that would be a bigger failure point.
My solution to the possibilty of tearing a suit has been twofold:
1. Dive a suit made of hypercompressed or crushed neoprene (not "compressed" neoprene). I dive the BARE Sentry, which I helped design for BARE and is newly available to the public. Only it and the DUI CF200 use this type of material, which is by far the toughest, most tear resistant fabric available in a drysuit. Prior to the Sentry, I dove the BARE XCS2, which uses a very similar and tough fabric.
2. Maintain proper bouyancy throughout the dive. The best way to prevent damage to any drysuit is to stay off of sharp things.
So far, it's working. I've got something like 1,200 hours underwater over the past couple years in hypercompressed neoprene drysuits equipped with SHOWA 720s, cleaning oysters and barnacles off of boat bottoms, cutting pilings with chainsaws, reciprocating saws, and angle grinders, and doing salvage work (where there's always sharp edges). I can count on one hand how many times I've holed a glove - which I usually don't know about until I doff the glove. I've never holed a hypercompressed neo suit, even though I've bumped and scraped and damaged them plenty. I've never torn either or experienced a catastrophic flood - regardless of whether I had wrist seals intact or removed (cut back).
If you're doing staged decompression, you're probably diving a wrist computer like a Shearwater or something similar. The computer has either bungees or elastic straps that hold it in place. If you were to suffer a catasrophic flood, in an emergency you could use those to help block additional suit flooding... Just move the computer to the affected limb and end the dive.
If you're not doing staged decompression, simply surface and end the dive.
...But so far - in the worst of conditions - I haven't experienced it.
...So no, I don't bother with a strap.
Leto
Registered
Thanks for the extensive reply!
You never experienced/seen a dryglove popping off because a large amount of gas got into them? Btw, I tried doing that in a pool but I wasnt able to pop them off despite them getting quite large and floating of my fingers, so that gives me a good feeling. I know thats an unrealistic setting (laying on the pool bottom trying to raise one hand as high a possible) but better safe then sorry ;-)
I've got bungee mounts on both my wrists so that might a good last resort..
You never experienced/seen a dryglove popping off because a large amount of gas got into them? Btw, I tried doing that in a pool but I wasnt able to pop them off despite them getting quite large and floating of my fingers, so that gives me a good feeling. I know thats an unrealistic setting (laying on the pool bottom trying to raise one hand as high a possible) but better safe then sorry ;-)
I've got bungee mounts on both my wrists so that might a good last resort..
The chance of an Ultima DGS attached glove ring popping off under normal use is remote. The chance of one popping off if you are diving without wrist seals is even more remote as the air pressure in the glove is in balance with the rest of your drysuit. The excess air will vent from your dump or your neck seal long before the internal pressure in the suit is high enough to cause your glove ring to pop off....unless your glove ring/glove ring o-ring is compromised.
(mind you, I have no scientific evidence to back any of the above up, but is seems rather logical, at least to me.)
-Z
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Nope.
I'm not using the Kubi system - I'm using the Ultima ring system - so while I can't speak for how secure the Kubis are, I can assure you that the Ultimas will not pop off no matter how much air is behind them. To remove, they have to be pulled off one one side - and even then it takes a good amount of force. That is - it's a differential in force from one side to the other that removes the ring. Even force all over the ring only makes the ring more secure.
Think suction cup: Pulling on it evenly only locks it down harder. Lift an edge, and it can be removed easily.
...So no, there's no practical way for air to pop them off.
Because I'm a working diver, I often find myself in positions other than prone. Throughout my dive I'm upside-down or vertical or sideways, working under a boat or cutting a piling. Quite often I find myself essentially vertical and reaching up to work on the bottom of a boat... Exactly the position which should blow up gloves.
As such, I've learned to absolutely minimize the amount of air in my drysuit. I accomplish this by leaving my exhaust valve fully open, as many diver do. In fact, I've actually modified my exhaust valve so that it's always open and can't be accidentally set to hold air... And added a second check valve to make it drier. I also made it flatter so it's less in the way.
...So when diving in a vertical, hands-up position, there's not much air that migrates to my gloves anyway.
Sure, I still inflate the suit to take the squeeze off - but the open exhaust valve dumps everything it can and the suit is perfectly equalized. There IS no additional "large amount of gas" that can migrate to the gloves.
The exact point of equalized - with no migrating air inside the suit - is a wonderful point and makes for a very enjoyable dive. I have often considered adding additional exhaust valves to my suit in various places. It's a real possibility with the smaller, flatter, no-adjustment-necessary exhaust valve that has double check valves.
Add the stretchiness of the tough, hypercompressed neoprene fabric in the BARE Sentry, and the suit dives more like a wetsuit - except that I'm wonderfully warm and dry inside.
No, gloves won't pop off... But there shouldn't be that much air inside your suit anyway.
I'm not using the Kubi system - I'm using the Ultima ring system - so while I can't speak for how secure the Kubis are, I can assure you that the Ultimas will not pop off no matter how much air is behind them. To remove, they have to be pulled off one one side - and even then it takes a good amount of force. That is - it's a differential in force from one side to the other that removes the ring. Even force all over the ring only makes the ring more secure.
Think suction cup: Pulling on it evenly only locks it down harder. Lift an edge, and it can be removed easily.
...So no, there's no practical way for air to pop them off.
Because I'm a working diver, I often find myself in positions other than prone. Throughout my dive I'm upside-down or vertical or sideways, working under a boat or cutting a piling. Quite often I find myself essentially vertical and reaching up to work on the bottom of a boat... Exactly the position which should blow up gloves.
As such, I've learned to absolutely minimize the amount of air in my drysuit. I accomplish this by leaving my exhaust valve fully open, as many diver do. In fact, I've actually modified my exhaust valve so that it's always open and can't be accidentally set to hold air... And added a second check valve to make it drier. I also made it flatter so it's less in the way.
...So when diving in a vertical, hands-up position, there's not much air that migrates to my gloves anyway.
Sure, I still inflate the suit to take the squeeze off - but the open exhaust valve dumps everything it can and the suit is perfectly equalized. There IS no additional "large amount of gas" that can migrate to the gloves.
The exact point of equalized - with no migrating air inside the suit - is a wonderful point and makes for a very enjoyable dive. I have often considered adding additional exhaust valves to my suit in various places. It's a real possibility with the smaller, flatter, no-adjustment-necessary exhaust valve that has double check valves.
Add the stretchiness of the tough, hypercompressed neoprene fabric in the BARE Sentry, and the suit dives more like a wetsuit - except that I'm wonderfully warm and dry inside.
No, gloves won't pop off... But there shouldn't be that much air inside your suit anyway.
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