Two fatalities in Monterey

[Jax]

Yeah, I get it. You don't know the difference between say a car accident and divers running out of gas.

So instead of elaborating on your points, your preference is drag my personal safety into the discussion in a backhanded manner. Hmm...

May I suggest that in order to contribute constructively to the thread, we stick with elaborating on the merits of our points? And we can no longer do that, then we should recognize that it is time to bow out of the thread.

Now, now . . .

This sounds like the two of you are arguing past each other. One is saying it should've, could've, ought to've never happen, and the other is saying, it happens, so be prepared to DO something.

Frankly, " should've, could've, ought to've " doesn't do a darned thing to help those who end up in those circumstances.

Telling a teenager to never get in a car with a drunk driver doesn't help them one whit when they find that they are in a car with a drunk driver. What now?

Telling a teenager to always watch their breathing gas, and never run out of gas, doesn't help them one whit when they DO run out of gas.

We have to stop saying "you shouldn't have done that" when it is too damn late. We need to give divers the tools of what to do when they are stupid. It's why I disagree with people that won't answer a question they consider 'dumb', because they think it will encourage someone to do something stupid. The fact is, people WILL keep doing something stupid and knowing what to do after stupid could be the difference between learning a lesson and being one.

 

[AbyssalPlains]

In my book, this incident - but more so the ensuing discussion on this board - show that all the stuff we teach OW students is pure theory. I have always felt that if I was in a real OOG situation, my brain would toss out any of that complicated procedure stuff I was shown (note, I'm not using the words "I learned" or "I was taught") in my training out the window and switch to emergency mode.

(And my training was pretty in-depth compared to how it's done nowadays. I learned from two instructors, one-on-one, in a non-commercial setting and had the privilege to do 10 OW dives for my OW cert, which included rescuing an unconscious diver from depth and stuff like that. I was trained under CMAS.)

I just don't believe that anyone who suddenly sucks on an empty tank at depth will keep calm, sit there for a few seconds and remember "Breathe, think, act" and deliberate the options. "Hmm, let's see, am I going to do a controlled swimming ascent, a CESA or perhaps should I go find my buddy first to see if he can give me some air?"

Yeah right.

I don't believe in contrived "emergency procedures" that nobody will remember in a real situation because they're A) too complicated and B) never practiced after the OW "training."

Countless studies have shown most people can't even do CPR right in a true situation - a procedure so easy by comparison that any 6-year old can learn it.

The only remedy to OOG scenarios is redundancy in my opinion, and we should teach that to OW students. Make pony bottles as mandatory as mask and fins.

 

[Adobo]

We have to stop saying "you shouldn't have done that" when it is too damn late. We need to give divers the tools of what to do when they are stupid.

How is it different to tell them that they should have ditched their weight belts? In either case, "its too damn late."

Again, the problem in out of gas emergencies usually begin in the planning stages of the dive. They do not begin when the divers run out of gas. And it isn't usually because people (teenagers or otherwise) are stupid.

 

[Jax]

Accident analysis and lessons learned become the proactive means.

 

[kathydee]

It might just me but I have always been under the impression that it is better to get ahead of a problem than to let the situation deteriorate to the point where one has to resort to acts of desperation.

out of gas emergencies usually begin in the planning stages of the dive. They do not begin when the divers run out of gas.

Agreed

 

[mdb]

OOA emergencies can occur way past any "planning stages". A HP seat failure-been there and done that-a ruptured hose, a medical emergency, any of these, and more, can occur. What to do if/when such an accident/incident happens can be a good learning point for both old and new divers.

 

[K_girl]

Karl Huggins, director of the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber, and I were discussing this earlier today. Bringing an unconscious diver to the surface should not cause an embolism/lung-rupture if the airway is open.

However, there could be blood present if there was some sort of a prior lung rupture or perhaps sinus issues. Or, if there was aspiration of sea water, you could end up with pinkish frothy fluid coming from the mouth &/or nose.

But if the diver is unconscious, they're not "holding" their breath since that's a conscious effort. All the air passages ought to be relaxed so whatever expanding air there is, should vent out.

- Ken

I remember reading about an incident in Sheck Exley's dive manual about a diver who recovered from a near-drowning. The rescuing buddy found him unconscious, reg out of his mouth. The rescuing buddy did not attempt to put the reg back in, then pushed on the victim's chest to force air out of the victim's lungs as he surfaced with the victim. Never heard about that before, but keeping it in mind as something that was successful.

 

[Jax]

Haven't heard that . . . Is that a good thing, or could one create a suction when the ribs sprang out?

 

[K_girl]

On my visits to the Metridium Fields, there has not been much kelp. Mostly sandy bottom and you travel from small rock cropping to the next which are covered in Metridium. I have not heard much about entanglement regarding this incident. Does anyone know what the kelp conditions are where these boys were found? Beginning to sound like an OOA in combination with panic. One boy with his mask off, perhaps knocked off by the other panicking diver. Would like to know if the boy whose mask was missing was the boy who had some air left in his tank and was maybe trying to share with the other boy. Once the mask is knocked off, the conditions of cold water, low visibility and surge could easily make one panic and drown very quickly.

Tragic, tragic story. I am so sad.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

In my book, this incident - but more so the ensuing discussion on this board - show that all the stuff we teach OW students is pure theory. I have always felt that if I was in a real OOG situation, my brain would toss out any of that complicated procedure stuff I was shown (note, I'm not using the words "I learned" or "I was taught") in my training out the window and switch to emergency mode.

(And my training was pretty in-depth compared to how it's done nowadays. I learned from two instructors, one-on-one, in a non-commercial setting and had the privilege to do 10 OW dives for my OW cert, which included rescuing an unconscious diver from depth and stuff like that. I was trained under CMAS.)

I just don't believe that anyone who suddenly sucks on an empty tank at depth will keep calm, sit there for a few seconds and remember "Breathe, think, act" and deliberate the options. "Hmm, let's see, am I going to do a controlled swimming ascent, a CESA or perhaps should I go find my buddy first to see if he can give me some air?"

Yeah right.

I don't believe in contrived "emergency procedures" that nobody will remember in a real situation because they're A) too complicated and B) never practiced after the OW "training."

Countless studies have shown most people can't even do CPR right in a true situation - a procedure so easy by comparison that any 6-year old can learn it.

The only remedy to OOG scenarios is redundancy in my opinion, and we should teach that to OW students. Make pony bottles as mandatory as mask and fins.

You're right it doesn't happen that way. When it happened to me on dive number 13 I was fortunate enough to have a buddy (my instructor) that responded instantly to my OOA signal. I though had been checking my gauge after realizing the DM candidate was a moron when I showed her my gauge and it read 500psi and she led me to the instructor at 50ft. What I did not know was that the gauge was off by 300psi and not in my favor. I was also fortunate enough to know that panic doesn't solve anything and so reacted out of instinct. That instinct was to signal and go for the octo which was on it's way to me. And I do my best with my students by having them do skills over and over until it is as much instinct for them as it can be. Again "mastery' after one successful demonstration? Nah.

The real remedy to OOA is not pony bottles. It is gas management way beyond "be back with 500psi" in the OW classes.