TSDT Flower Gardens Trip update...+

[Dee]

The trip details are final, I signed the contract today. Our date is May 16/17th, 2003. Price has increased to $360. This is the wholesale price. (You'll see higher prices from the dive shops but that's because they add a bit for their expenses.)

Deposits have been recieved from all but two on the list, Jake Childress and TexasMike. If you guys read this, or someone can get a message to them, have them either send me their $50 deposits or contact me within one week. At this time we have 1 free spot. If I haven't heard from these guys by next Friday, we'll have 3 spots available. Please help me fill them up or everyone's price goes up!

The balance of the trip is due to me by April 10th. I'll remind you!

 

[GeekDiver]

Cool good to hear this. Dee, is there a way to pay with CC or do we need to send a check? Oce again Thanks for all yoru hard ork in arangeing this.

 

[Dee]

GeekDiver once bubbled...
Cool good to hear this. Dee, is there a way to pay with CC or do we need to send a check? Oce again Thanks for all yoru hard ork in arangeing this.

Sorry...I have no way of accepting credit cards and the Sea Searcher doesn't deal with the public at all. Personal checks or money orders will be just fine.

 

[Cave Diver]

Dee once bubbled...


Sorry...I have no way of accepting credit cards and the Sea Searcher doesn't deal with the public at all. Personal checks or money orders will be just fine.

Dont you have a paypal account? If so, I think they could use a credit card to pay via paypal.

 

[Dee]

Cave Diver once bubbled...


Dont you have a paypal account? If so, I think they could use a credit card to pay via paypal.

Yes, I have a Pay Pal account but it's not a business account and I can't accept credit card payment through it. And no, I won't upgrade because I don't like their fees.

 

[GeekDiver]

Dee,

No problem, theres plenty of time to plan for it. I asked because that way I could pay it now and have it out of the way.

Geek

 

[scubafanatic]

I've reserved a spot on the Sea Searcher May 10-11 (the weekend before your trip) with Burleson Scuba, but have never dove the Flower Gardens before, so I need some advice from Flower Gardens 'pros' such as yourself.

For starters, the Sea Searcher pretty much prohibits anyone from bring their own tanks, so it appears I'll be 'stuck' diving the lowest-common-denominator AL80......which is a blow to someone so used to diving overfilled LP 120 steels, as I was counting on bring my own tanks.

Since there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the Sea Searcher expressly does allow "up to 40 cu. ft. ponies", I'm thinking about resorting to 'plan B' and bring along my 30 cu. ft. pony instead.

I'm comfortable in the water, and have a few dozen dives to my credit, but have never dove the deep blue sea before. (yes, I read your thread on newbies vs. Gulf Coast/Flower Gardens diving).

My worry is that being 'new', I'll be excited/nervous and short change my fellow divers by calling the dive first....plus I want to have that extra safety margin.

Is using a 30 cu. ft. pony a realistic option ? I've never used a pony before (yes, I plan to practice dive with one in fresh water prior to the trip.)

Will the 'drag' be a significant issue for me? (I assume the weight of an AL80 + AL30 combined won't be any worse than my present LP120 steel without pony)

The Flower Gardens is a non-overhead environment, so I'm not worried about entanglement issues, so would it be best to mount the pony on the center of the AL80, instead of to one side, where the weight will tend to roll me to one side?

How does 'Beast' cope with the inadequate AL80.......using just the AL80, what sort of bottom times do you and Beast get? (and at what depths?) (I've read the Flower Gardens dives are in the 70--80 ft. depth range.)

Mares sells a device called a "safe 1st".......I can't find much info on it, but from what I can tell, it's essentially a 1st-stage with a short HP hose, which allows one to 'soft' manifold 2 tanks together.....so I'd considered using one to join the pony to the AL80, and essentially end up with 110 cu. ft if I wanted......plus if I so choose, this 'union' would allow my air-integrated computer to 'see' all the 110 cu. ft. available to me.

Any thoughts on my 'plans'?


Thanks in advance,

Karl

 

[Dee]

scubafanatic once bubbled...
I'm comfortable in the water, and have a few dozen dives to my credit, but have never dove the deep blue sea before. (yes, I read your thread on newbies vs. Gulf Coast/Flower Gardens diving).

Then you already know that the most important thing for you to know is how to recognize your limitations and either sit out a dive or call it. A fool in the water is a danger to himself as well as everyone else. You earn more respect by knowing when to quit or lay out a dive.

My worry is that being 'new', I'll be excited/nervous and short change my fellow divers by calling the dive first....plus I want to have that extra safety margin.

Worrying about it will only make it worse. Just remember to relax and breath normally. Your air comsumption will improve with experience, everyone's does. The dive profiles at the FG won't give you long bottom times anyway.

Is using a 30 cu. ft. pony a realistic option ? I've never used a pony before (yes, I plan to practice dive with one in fresh water prior to the trip.)

Will the 'drag' be a significant issue for me? (I assume the weight of an AL80 + AL30 combined won't be any worse than my present LP120 steel without pony)

The Flower Gardens is a non-overhead environment, so I'm not worried about entanglement issues, so would it be best to mount the pony on the center of the AL80, instead of to one side, where the weight will tend to roll me to one side?

Yes. I always use a pony out there, but only as an emergency air supply, a bailout bottle. A pony is not to be used to extend your bottom time. I use a 2# weight in a trim pocket mounted to a tank strap as a counterweight for my AL30 pony. Never had any reason to mount it on the center of the tank. Even without a counterweight, my pony doesn't 'roll me to either side', just makes me feel off balance a bit. And no...the combined weight isn't close to your LP120!

How does 'Beast' cope with the inadequate AL80.......using just the AL80, what sort of bottom times do you and Beast get? (and at what depths?) (I've read the Flower Gardens dives are in the 70--80 ft. depth range.)

Beast does very well with AL80 tanks and we usually get 45-50min. At 30min we start our ascent, for several reasons. 1)You'd be amazed at what you can see in mid-water. 2) We always take long safety stops. Don't worry about others bottom times. Plan your dive within safe nitrogen levels and get back on the boat with 500 psi.

Mares sells a device called a "safe 1st".......I can't find much info on it, but from what I can tell, it's essentially a 1st-stage with a short HP hose, which allows one to 'soft' manifold 2 tanks together.....so I'd considered using one to join the pony to the AL80, and essentially end up with 110 cu. ft if I wanted......plus if I so choose, this 'union' would allow my air-integrated computer to 'see' all the 110 cu. ft. available to me. Any thoughts on my 'plans'?

Don't bother! I'm sure it works but why do you need it? All that extra hardware and possible failure point, isn't worth an extra 10 min. of bottom time. Your money would be better spent on a set of LP72 doubles!

My thoughts of your plans? Use plan A...Take your pony for the safety of a redundant air supply, use the AL80 as requested and don't worry about bottom times. Concentrate on having a good time, a safe time.

Besides, being last up on the boat isn't all it's cracked up to be! The cokes and fruit are gone, your towel has already been used, and everyone looks at you like it's your fault they got seasick while waiting on you to surface!

 

[Cave Diver]

Having taken several trips on the Sea Searcher II I have a few comments for you:

scubafanatic once bubbled...
Since there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the Sea Searcher expressly does allow "up to 40 cu. ft. ponies", I'm thinking about resorting to 'plan B' and bring along my 30 cu. ft. pony instead.

If you think you are going to need a pony bottle, then you probably aren't completely comfortable with gas management yet. The SSII expressly watches recreational limits, and they ask you to return with 500psi in your tank. Your depth and time is logged on a board upon your return so they can keep track of it. If you are diving within recreational limits, the tanks they provide you should be more than adequate.

scubafanatic once bubbled...
My worry is that being 'new', I'll be excited/nervous and short change my fellow divers by calling the dive first....plus I want to have that extra safety margin.

It's good to see you expressing a concern for your fellow divers. My advice here would be to try and buddy with someone with equivalent experience/consumption rates. The crew on SSII is excellent; tell one of the DM's ahead of time your concerns and I'm sure they will do their best to pair you with someone like that.

Safety margin is a good idea, BUT if you stay within your NDL and recreational limits, a redundant air supply should not be a necessity. One can never argue safety, but on the other hand a lot of divers tend to become "unsafe" because they start to rely on that "extra" gas.

scubafanatic once bubbled...
Is using a 30 cu. ft. pony a realistic option ? I've never used a pony before (yes, I plan to practice dive with one in fresh water prior to the trip.)

Will the 'drag' be a significant issue for me? (I assume the weight of an AL80 + AL30 combined won't be any worse than my present LP120 steel without pony)

If you don't get the opportunity to practice with it extensively, my advice would be to leave it at home. Extra gear just tends to induce task loading, and unless you are intimately familiar with it, another failure point.

Drag can be an issue, especially since there can be considerable current in the Gulf. Anything you can do to streamline yourself will go along way towards decreasing your air consumption, as well as making your dive more enjoyable.

I would think that the AL80+pony would present a significanlty wider profile than using a single LP120 alone. The pony is prolly around 4 1/2 inches wide, plus mounting bracket. I seriously doubt that your LP120 is more than inch wider than an AL80.

scubafanatic once bubbled...
The Flower Gardens is a non-overhead environment, so I'm not worried about entanglement issues, so would it be best to mount the pony on the center of the AL80, instead of to one side, where the weight will tend to roll me to one side?

I would think this would give you and even greater profile, and further reduce streamlining which would increase drag. If you decide to use the pony, my suggestion would be to distribute your weight to offset the effects of the pony. (This is where your freshwater practice comes into play).

scubafanatic once bubbled...
How does 'Beast' cope with the inadequate AL80.......using just the AL80, what sort of bottom times do you and Beast get? (and at what depths?) (I've read the Flower Gardens dives are in the 70--80 ft. depth range.)

Having dove with both Beast and Dee once or twice, I can tell you from experience they have very good consumption. Beast is a big guy, but his gear is streamlined and he moves efficiently. I would think that an AL80 is hardly "inadequate" for him. Dee got about the same amount of bottom time out of her lil tank (AL60 I believe) that I got out of my LP112 on one dive. I swear, I think she was putting air back INTO the tank...

Depth on the flower gardens varies on where they moor, and how far you are able to swim. On several dives there I was able to hit the 130' limit easily, tho I don't recommend this to everyone. One of the most interesting dives I had was during my 20' safety stop watching an 8' bull shark cruising below us at about 60' on Stetsons.

Using my own experience, on a recent trip to Grand Cayman my dive group averaged an hour bottom time with 100' being the avg depth. A lot of these dives were done on AL80's but a few were also done with steel 72's. It's more about the diver, not the equipment. Try not to focus on that and you'll be a lot more relaxed during your dive.

scubafanatic once bubbled...
Mares sells a device called a "safe 1st".......I can't find much info on it, but from what I can tell, it's essentially a 1st-stage with a short HP hose, which allows one to 'soft' manifold 2 tanks together.....so I'd considered using one to join the pony to the AL80, and essentially end up with 110 cu. ft if I wanted......plus if I so choose, this 'union' would allow my air-integrated computer to 'see' all the 110 cu. ft. available to me.

IMO Mares sells a lot of "flashy" stuff to new and unsuspecting divers. They aren't the only ones that do it, just seem to be one of the best (worst?) at it.

I would strongly recommend against a 'soft' manifold such as you are describing because in the (unlikely) event of a hose failure, you could lose the gas supply from both cylinders. That would effectively kill any redundant benefit of a pony bottle.

Dont be so concerned about not having enough air. Your first few dives, stick close to the mooring til you hit your turn pressure, then you can ascend and hang out in shallower water near the line. You can still see the bottom from there, and you will be amazed at the stuff you notice while doing midwater hangs that you would miss if on the bottom. We had a small school of mantas come by and check us out around 40' on one trip. Also saw the bullshark cruising at about 60', several other sharks and a buncha 'cudas.

Relax, enjoy, and have fun!

 

[scubafanatic]

I appreciate both of your insights into my 'issues', here's a few follow-up thoughts I had:

1) the thought of using a pair of LP72's won't work on the Sea Searcher, as they will issue me an AL 80 (I understand the Fling/Spree requires divers to bring their own tanks, so they don't care what size one uses....which is the opposite of the Sea Searcher, where one-size-fits all, like it or not.)

2) I will probably relax more and use less air with the comfort of a pony than if I don't use a pony and worry more about the air issue.

3) I knew the 'soft' manifold concept wouldn't be very 'PC'.....I'm just thinking out loud about doing that versus using a 'conventional' set up --totally independent pony+reg bolted to the side, with no 'communication' with the main tank. In defense of the concept, I would be using a brand-new short HP hose, so I think the chance of a 'blow out' is remote.

4) The 'soft' manifold would simplify my gear (I think) although I'm still looking at exactly how it could be set up. It appears I could access the pony's air without needing to attach any other hoses to the pony 1st-stage, just attach the short HP hose to connect the 2 1st-stages, and simply use the BC / primary 2nd stage/ octo/ SPG/ air-integrated computer run all off the primary 2nd stage as normal...which would reduce the number of loose hoses (and the resulting drag), since I wouldn't have to necessarily run an independent 2nd-stage/SPG off the pony 1st -stage (although I could if I wanted too).

(yes, I do agree there is a sound logic to operating the pony as a completely independent system......and I'm not saying that I won't end up doing just that.......one disadvantage to that would be I'd have to manually inflate my BC, as I can't connect 2 independent BC hoses to my BC)

(also, it might be nice to let my air-integrated computer 'see' all 110 cu. ft. of air available.......so that if in an emergency I have to dip into the pony air reserve, the computer will still accurately track my dive parameters, so I know where I stand as far as nitrogen-loading, safety stop duration, etc)

5) I don't plan any endurance/depth contests, so I have no intention of violating NDL/depth limits....but would like to have a 'fudge factor' built in. I'll be with 15 other divers, and will follow the groups' lead, but I want to guarantee that if anyone has an OOA emergency, I'll be the one donating, not receiving........just don't want to be the weakest-link.

6) Buddy paring worries me, and as diving with complete strangers appears inevitable, a pony would increase my survival chances, as I'm leary of depending on someone I've never met before being my sole back up plan.

7) I wasn't planning to rely on the pony gas to prolong my dives, my impression is that most divers won't even use ponies, so when my buddy calls the dive, I'm fine with that, I just don't want to be the spoil-sport.......just in case my air consumption is really sub-standard, which I won't know until I'm in the water and it's too late to change anything.

8) Sounds like it's a better idea to mount the pony to one side, and add/subtract 2# weight as needed...to reduce drag...and to avoid having that extra pony weight distributed that far out from my body, which I think will tend to pull me backwards in the water too much. I agree the drag will be greater than with my single LP120, but again, that's not an option on the Sea Searcher.

I've got a number of other areas to explore with both of you as well, since you've been so generous so far, as far as what to expect on a live aboard, what to bring, and specifics on dive experiences at the Flower Gardens aboard the Sea Searcher, so I hope you don't mind my asking.

Karl