Troubling incident in San Pedro

[victorzamora]

So 61' is OK. But 130' is not? Seems kind of arbitrary to me. Maybe they need to make some rules.

Yup, it is arbitrary. They DON'T need new rules: 60ft is their rule for training exercises.

 

[Mossman]

As has been said many times, neither they nor any other agency has the authority to issue rules governing the behavior of certified divers. Their rules govern instructional dives only. Read the quoted text in post #36 to see their limitations in this regard. The rules for instructional dives are very clear about depths. After that, all they can do is recommend. They recommend that OW divers stick to 60 feet without further training and experience. They recommend that those who get further training and experience, including AOW, stay above 100 feet. They recommend that divers wishing to go to the recreational limit of 130 feet get specific deep diver training.

Yes, this is vague, but how else can they do it? They clearly don't think that brand new divers should be going to 130 feet.


I have no idea what that is.

My mistake, I hadn't looked at the card for years. Not PADI. It's actually TDI/SDI. I guess I don't have any PADI certifications after all.

How can they not have the authority to issue rules concerning the behavior of certified divers? I mean, who's gonna stop them if they do? Who "authorizes" these sort of things anyhow? Obama? Putin? The Pope?

 

[boulderjohn]

My mistake, I hadn't looked at the card for years. Not PADI. It's actually TDI/SDI. I guess I don't have any PADI certifications after all.

How can they not have the authority to issue rules concerning the behavior of certified divers? I mean, who's gonna stop them if they do? Who "authorizes" these sort of things anyhow? Obama? Putin? The Pope?

Local authorities.

The French government has a lot of rules for diving there, at least as far as I know. The Quebec government has a number of rules. I recently dived in Australia, where I had to take a snorkel with me according to their laws. You dive a lot in Cozumel, where you are required to have a divemaster, and you can't wear gloves--again by local law. You can't wear gloves in Grand Cayman by local law.

Another local authority is the dive operator. The captain of a dive boat can make regulations regarding diving off of that boat. That's why some boats can require AOW for some dives, but others don't. That is the authority to which PADI is appealing in this case.

How can agencies enforce rules about local diving practices? I could form an agency this afternoon. Could I then tell the dive operators in Belize that I have created a new agency, and according to my rules, they cannot take any divers deeper than 15 feet? How well do you think that would be received? If any agency made "rules" for affiliated dive operators that were too unpopular, then the operators would just affiliate with a different agency.

 

[Mike]

My mistake, I hadn't looked at the card for years. Not PADI. It's actually TDI/SDI. I guess I don't have any PADI certifications after all.

How can they not have the authority to issue rules concerning the behavior of certified divers? I mean, who's gonna stop them if they do? Who "authorizes" these sort of things anyhow? Obama? Putin? The Pope?

Um, yeah. Unfortunately for your purpose, the subject is about PADI affiliated dive operations operating within their agreements with PADI, not about the scuba police over individual divers.

Again, read the letter and you can respond intelligently. Not that you really want to of course and that's your prerogative and point anyways, right?

---------- Post added July 24th, 2014 at 03:57 PM ----------

If any agency made "rules" for affiliated dive operators that were too unpopular, then the operators would just affiliate with a different agency.

Of course and that's the whole point and why PADI de-members one of the flock when they repeatedly issued warnings to that member to stop violating the policies they agreed to, to be a member. That's why PADI issued a warning letter to the entire dive industry in Belize who were PADI members warning them about the general violations.

What makes it more relevant is that the warnings are also not just warnings about violations that have no bearing on diver safety such as an arbitrary thing like not displaying PADI's logo correctly, but the warnings are warnings that I would think most agencies, not just PADI would issue because they are basic safety violations such as taking a new diver with 5 dives to 130 feet.

 

[Mossman]

If any agency made "rules" for affiliated dive operators that were too unpopular, then the operators would just affiliate with a different agency.

Sure, they could. Same goes with rules of instruction. For instance, I could allow MSDA (Mossman Scuba Diving Agency) instructors to take their students to 62', thumbing my nose at PADI "rules". Obviously if I did that legions of instructors would abandon PADI and send their annual dues to me instead making me an instant billionaire. PADI is simply lucky that I'm too busy for that sort of thing.

If Amigos del Mar wishes, it can become an MSDA-sanctioned shop and send their divers to 140' in the Blue Hole with my approval. For that privilege, I would only charge them $1,500 and I'll send them a fancy window sticker in return.

---------- Post added July 24th, 2014 at 03:54 PM ----------

Um, yeah. Unfortunately for your purpose, the subject is about PADI affiliated dive operations operating within their agreements with PADI, not about the scuba police over individual divers.

Again, read the letter and you can respond intelligently. Not that you really want to of course and that's your prerogative and point anyways, right?

"Was everyone qualified by certification and experience to dive to the depth they went on the blue hole dive? That's the issue"

No need to read a letter listing all the issues because you said "That's the issue" and that's the issue I addressed. Are you contradicting yourself now?

Of course and that's the whole point and why PADI de-members one of the flock when they repeatedly issued warnings to that member to stop violating the policies they agreed to, to be a member.

The correct term is dismember.

What makes it more relevant is that the warnings are also not just warnings about violations that have no bearing on diver safety such as an arbitrary thing like not displaying PADI's logo correctly, but the warnings are warnings that I would think most agencies, not just PADI would issue because they are basic safety violations such as taking a new diver with 5 dives to 130 feet.

Ah, so now it's a "basic safety violation". But it's OK for a diver with ten dives. Or would you require a thousand?

 

[Mike]

The French government has a lot of rules for diving there, at least as far as I know.

I found it very interesting diving in French jurisdiction waters with CMAS shops how there was a big difference in attitudes about dive master/dive operation responsibilities and accountability. There was very little of the gray area mentality that their seems to be with the American agencies, and the dive 'guide' moniker to distance themselves from responsibility to their clients.

 

[AWMIII]

The local Paper chimed in

PADI expels Amigos del Mar Dive Shop - The San Pedro Sun News

PADI expels Amigos del Mar Dive Shop [h=6]Thursday, July 24th, 2014[/h]

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One of the oldest dive shops on Ambergris Caye has been expelled from the PADI dive organization network. The expulsion was made effective on Thursday, July 17th, and as a result, Amigos del Mar Dive Shop can no longer conduct any PADI certified courses or represent themselves as PADI members. Also expelled as a PADI affiliate, on the same date was Marciano Mendez who conducts dive training at Amigos.
Due to confidentiality code, PADI cannot disclose the reason for the expulsion, but has assured that expulsion is the last resort when addressing issues with members. PADI Quality Management Manager, Linda Van Velsen told The San Pedro Sun that before any establishment is expelled, PADI follows an extensive process that includes fact checking, getting all perspectives about the issue including the members, and, when necessary, offers corrective retraining and cooperative compliance before expulsion is considered. The San Pedro Sun contacted the owner of Amigos del Mar Dive Shop, Albino “Changa” Paz but he declined to comment on the matter.
While PADI is the most recognized and world’s leading scuba diver training organization, it is not the only dive training organization that dive shops in Belize affiliate themselves with. Other dive training organizations that provide certification include Scuba Diving International (SDI), Scuba Schools International (SSI), National Association of Underwater Instructors (NAUI) and National Association of Scuba Diving Schools (NASDS), among others. Amigos del Mar Dive Shop is a SDI and SSI affiliate.

The San Pedro Sun has also been following a seemingly related case to Amigos of sexual assault that reportedly took place on Tuesday, May 20th at the Amigos del Mar dock. According to San Pedro Police, the 18-year-old victim reported she was sexual assaulted while practicing dive lessons at Amigos. The victim stated that she started receiving lessons by dive instructor Marciano Mendez on Monday, May 19th at the Amigos del Mar Dive Shop. On her second day of lessons, she was informed that Mendez was not available, so she was instructed to practice dive skills with Gerson Cordon. Cordon is the manager of Amigos Jungle Tour which operates under Amigos del Mar Dive Shop. According to the victim, the first time she had met Cordon was the previous day during her dive lesson. At about 45 minutes into the practice she stopped to try to fix the waist belt of the equipment which kept falling off, but couldn’t fix it properly. Cordon came over to assist her and after tightening the belt he pushed his hand between her legs, pulling her bikini bottom to the side, and proceeded to indecently touch her in her genital area. The victim stated that she was scared by the situation and could not scream or tell anyone; instead she just finished her lessons and left. Cordon was officially arrested and charged for the crime of Sexual Assault on Thursday, July 22nd, and was later released on bail. The court hearing for the incident is scheduled for later this month.
The San Pedro Sun held an interview with the victim, wherein she stated that she had also reported the incident to PADI on Tuesday, May 27th, but has not filed an official complaint to the establishment. “I don’t want this to be happening to anyone else,” said the victim.
There is no confirmation from any relevant parties on whether the PADI expulsion was a result of the sexual assault accusations or is a component of other improprieties within the prominent dive company

 

[Mossman]

I found it very interesting diving in French jurisdiction waters with CMAS shops how there was a big difference in attitudes about dive master/dive operation responsibilities and accountability. There was very little of the gray area mentality that their seems to be with the American agencies, and the dive 'guide' moniker to distance themselves from responsibility to their clients.

AFAIK, the laws that apply to diving in France do not apply in French Polynesia. From my experience, dive shops may vary from place to place but it's never seemed to me to be a function of the agency or agencies with which they may claim affiliation. I had a "troubling incident" in Rangiroa, but it was with a PADI shop. DM pulled me to the surface from where I had been lingering at about 5-6 feet which potentially may have injured me if my lungs were full of air at the time. I gave him a lungful when I was back on the boat.

---------- Post added July 24th, 2014 at 05:46 PM ----------

Cordon came over to assist her and after tightening the belt he pushed his hand between her legs, pulling her bikini bottom to the side, and proceeded to indecently touch her in her genital area.

Well, there you go. Had he decently touched her in her genital area, all would have been fine.

 

[Mike]

Interesting that they are also a SSI and SDI member. Wonder how long it will be before they lose them also? Doesn't look to well upon your organization to have a pariah in your ranks.

 

[Mossman]

Interesting that they are also a SSI and SDI member. Wonder how long it will be before they lose them also? Doesn't look to well upon your organization to have a pariah in your ranks.

If they're a pariah then by definition they wouldn't be in your ranks.

But unlike PADI, SSI and SDI do not specifically state that touching of the genital area is cause for dismemberment, so I'd imagine that as long as Amigos' dues are paid up they'll be just fine.