Troubling incident in San Pedro

[Mike]

And how can one possibly get the experience without the certification if one strictly adheres to PADI's "rules"?

What does that even mean? Do you have no certifications beyond OW?

You aren't aware that most PADI certs are a combination of class room and dives (experience)?

Besides PADI what other agencies don't combine the two?

You said "certification and experience". Did you mean "certification OR experience" ?

If certification isn't the issue, why is PADI getting involved?

All the answers to your questions you are confused about are in the post above that is a copy of the PADI letter, it clearly lists all of the issues PADI has with them all, and it clearly list and differentiates everything you're asking about in regard to it not just being certification, they spelled it out very clearly. I don't think there is any need for me to repeat it all when all you have to do is read it yourself.

 

[mjrob]

Well, if they're going to pull PADI flags from all the dive ops in San Pedro that violate their "standards" and, in particular, go to the Blue Hole, we'll soon be down to zero (or damn close) PADI shops there. Not that I care. Nearly all (note: nearly) of the dive sites off AC also exceed 60' in depth. As well, it can also be a pretty dicey boat exit and entry many days out of the year. I'll guarantee you that there are a ton of folks doing their first back roll entries off rocking boats just outside the reef. Funny this all comes after ADM moved from PADI exclusivity a while back. Must not be generating as much income for them, I'd wager.

Seems we've wandered away from the OP's topic. Again.

 

[victorzamora]

PADI limits the depth of its certified OW divers to 60'.

Tons of misinformation right here. Sorry, but you're simply wrong. PADI limits the depth of students in OW class to 60ft. PADI limits the training dives to that depth, but they do not limit the diver to any depth. It allows divers to conduct no-stop dives in the open water on air and unaccompanied by a dive professional, in conditions suitable to their own individual experience levels. It does not limit the diver to 60ft. They also do not claim any OW-certified diver is capable of diving to 60ft in all conditions.

So all the PADI dive ops, just about anywhere, who take an OW diver past 60' are violating standards by taking PADI OW divers unqualified by certification past 60'?

Knowing the above, this is wrong. If the diver were sufficiently experienced, there'd be no reason to limit an OW diver to 60ft. Taking an OW-only diver to 130ft is perfectly allowable IF that specific diver has the appropriate experience. Some shops have a policy (not law or standard or rule, but policy) that AOW card is the only proof sufficient to prove a diver's capability of diving beyond 60ft and up to 130ft. However, I know PLENTY of AOW divers that are incompetent to an obscene degree with DM cards (and a few MSDTs as well) while I know some fantastic OW-only divers. Cert!=Skill, no matter what PADI, or any other agency, tries to teach.

 

[nimoh]

Tons of misinformation right here. Sorry, but you're simply wrong. PADI limits the depth of students in OW class to 60ft. PADI limits the training dives to that depth, but they do not limit the diver to any depth. It allows divers to conduct no-stop dives in the open water on air and unaccompanied by a dive professional, in conditions suitable to their own individual experience levels. It does not limit the diver to 60ft. They also do not claim any OW-certified diver is capable of diving to 60ft in all conditions.

I believe that is only partially correct. It has been a few years for me and not sure if this has changed, but PADI recommends that OW divers remain above 60 feet until they are AOW certified.

"recommends" may sound pretty weak, but it is all PADI can do anyway since there are no laws to back it up. A diver fresh out of OW class may choose to do a dive to 300 feet in a cave on a rebreather, and PADI wouldn't revoke their OW card. However, if a PADI affiliated dive shop was encouraging these students to do such dives, I'm sure they would be expelled from PADI.

 

[Mossman]

All the answers to your questions you are confused about are in the post above that is a copy of the PADI letter, it clearly lists all of the issues PADI has with them all, and it clearly list and differentiates everything you're asking about in regard to it not just being certification, they spelled it out very clearly. I don't think there is any need for me to repeat it all when all you have to do is read it yourself.

"Was everyone qualified by certification and experience to dive to the depth they went on the blue hole dive? That's the issue"

No need to read a letter listing all the issues because you said "That's the issue" and that's the issue I addressed. Are you contradicting yourself now?

---------- Post added July 24th, 2014 at 01:37 PM ----------

If the diver were sufficiently experienced, there'd be no reason to limit an OW diver to 60ft. Taking an OW-only diver to 130ft is perfectly allowable IF that specific diver has the appropriate experience.

Clearly then taking the OW diver to 130ft is perfectly allowable if they decided that the OW diver had the appropriate experience, whatever that is.

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe that is only partially correct. It has been a few years for me and not sure if this has changed, but PADI recommends that OW divers remain above 60 feet until they are AOW certified.

"recommends" may sound pretty weak, but it is all PADI can do anyway since there are no laws to back it up. A diver fresh out of OW class may choose to do a dive to 300 feet in a cave on a rebreather, and PADI wouldn't revoke their OW card. However, if a PADI affiliated dive shop was encouraging these students to do such dives, I'm sure they would be expelled from PADI.

PADI really can only recommend, and they are well aware of the fact that divers use their judgment to gain skills and experience that enable them to go to greater depths, etc. It happens all over the world, and it has happened since diving was invented. If you read what was written above, however, you will see that in these cases, they are talking about brand new divers, just certified, regularly being taken on this trip. PADI is saying the shops need to overrule this and not allow it to happen. They are threatening to drop them from affiliation, which is, frankly, not that big a deal for the shop. They can just switch easily to another agency and continue as before if they wish.

 

[Mossman]

You aren't aware that most PADI certs are a combination of class room and dives (experience)?

I only have one PADI cert. There was no instruction, no test. That's not the case with all PADI certs?

 

[boulderjohn]

I only have one PADI cert. There was no instruction, no test. That's not the case with all PADI certs?

What was that certification? It would have to be very unusual. More likely the instructor broke standards and should have been reported.

 

[Mossman]

PADI really can only recommend, and they are well aware of the fact that divers use their judgment to gain skills and experience that enable them to go to greater depths, etc. It happens all over the world, and it has happened since diving was invented. If you read what was written above, however, you will see that in these cases, they are talking about brand new divers, just certified, regularly being taken on this trip. PADI is saying the shops need to overrule this and not allow it to happen. They are threatening to drop them from affiliation, which is, frankly, not that big a deal for the shop. They can just switch easily to another agency and continue as before if they wish.

So 61' is OK. But 130' is not? Seems kind of arbitrary to me. Maybe they need to make some rules.

---------- Post added July 24th, 2014 at 01:46 PM ----------

What was that certification? It would have to be very unusual. More likely the instructor broke standards and should have been reported.

Pass Flying. The instructor is now a PADI IDC Staff Instructor, whatever that is. You can report him if you want, I'd sure hate to be complicit in breaking PADI standards. How would I be able to live with myself?

 

[boulderjohn]

So 61' is OK. But 130' is not? Seems kind of arbitrary to me. Maybe they need to make some rules.

As has been said many times, neither they nor any other agency has the authority to issue rules governing the behavior of certified divers. Their rules govern instructional dives only. Read the quoted text in post #36 to see their limitations in this regard. The rules for instructional dives are very clear about depths. After that, all they can do is recommend. They recommend that OW divers stick to 60 feet without further training and experience. They recommend that those who get further training and experience, including AOW, stay above 100 feet. They recommend that divers wishing to go to the recreational limit of 130 feet get specific deep diver training.

Yes, this is vague, but how else can they do it? They clearly don't think that brand new divers should be going to 130 feet.

Pass Flying

I have no idea what that is.