Tritan's Trumpet Migration

[ScubaSeanMaui]

I mean, really... what's the difference between grabbing a TT or buying a mahi sandwich at a restaurant?

One is the only predator of the COT and the other is a pelagic fish that's doing pretty well in the water... Also one is for food and another is for decoration... I think the TT is a major friend of the reef!

Here's something on the Mahimahi

Oceans Alive - mahimahi

Crown-of-thorns starfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Triton (mollusk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Sean

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Sure. Unless you're going to eat it and take it responsibly. I mean, really... what's the difference between grabbing a TT or buying a mahi sandwich at a restaurant?

Mahi mahi is not a reef fish but hopefully the mahi mahi you buy at a restaurant was taken responsibly. On an instructors budget the max $12 sandwich I could afford was caught outside of US waters (not fresh?) with less regard to sustainability and more about profit.

The TT's relationship to a healthy reef is proven and the scarcity of TT's leads to COT's and Cushion's doing more damage to the reef than they would if we allowed the natural balance to happen.

Since you have been diving in Hawaii, how many live TT's have you seen, and how many shells have you seen in peoples homes? In 2 years and nearly a couple thousand dives around Ulua reef, I saw at the most 3 different TT's a total of about 10 times. Tell me, how would you take one responsibly?

 

[KrisB]

One is the only predator of the COT and the other is a pelagic fish that's doing pretty well in the water... Also one is for food and another is for decoration... I think the TT is a major friend of the reef!

I think we need to be careful in branding any underwater creature as "friend" or "foe" to the ocean's ecosystem.

The Crown of Thorns is much less of an issue than people think... and likely garners exceptionally bad press simply because of the painfulness of the sting.

When was the last time you heard anyone complain about the cushion stars? They feed directly on the living coral, and I see way more of those than the CoT.

You'll note: we were talking about the TT being used for food.

 

[KrisB]

The TT's relationship to a healthy reef is proven and the scarcity of TT's leads to COT's and Cushion's doing more damage to the reef than they would if we allowed the natural balance to happen.

Agreed. I'm not advocating mass disruption of the ecosystem... but I think we need to be careful on our knee-jerk reactions.

I think we do need to respect, as well, that the stars are a valid part of the ecosystem, too. Just like we can't fault the turtles for scratching themselves on the coral that we tell our divers not to touch, we need to be careful in saying that the stars don't belong there, too.

Since you have been diving in Hawaii, how many live TT's have you seen, and how many shells have you seen in peoples homes?

TT shells? 0 on both questions.

I've seen a few helmets in the water, none in homes.

I've seen fewer CoT's in the water than helmets.

Though you're hitting a good point -- it's not just about the CoT's, but the "cute" cushion stars as well.

In 2 years and nearly a couple thousand dives around Ulua reef, I saw at the most 3 different TT's a total of about 10 times. Tell me, how would you take one responsibly?

That's for the person taking them to consider. I would suspect that it couldn't be done responsibly around Ulua, given the general lack of population.

However, I seem to see one on nearly every dive at Airport... so perhaps if it got to the point where I was seeing two or three, it might be possible.

 

[ScubaSeanMaui]

Agreed. I'm not advocating mass disruption of the ecosystem... but I think we need to be careful on our knee-jerk reactions.

I think we do need to respect, as well, that the stars are a valid part of the ecosystem, too. Just like we can't fault the turtles for scratching themselves on the coral that we tell our divers not to touch, we need to be careful in saying that the stars don't belong there, too.

Actually since the COT is an invasive species I think it's easy to say it's not a friend of the Hawaiian reefs.

"In coral ecosystems already affected by coral bleaching, excess tourism and natural events such as storms and El Nino, the effects of the invasive coral-feeding starfish (Acanthaster planci) on native coral communities contributes to an already dire state of affairs. The starfish significantly threatens the viability of these fragile coral ecosystems, and damage to coral gardens by the starfish has been quite extensive in some reef systems, for example those of Palau and Japan. It has become obvious these valuable communities need protection from the starfish for the benefit of both native marine ecosystems and tourism activities."

Global Invasive Species Database

Here's another quote:

"A crown of thorn starfish (often shortened as COT) can destroy everyday 1 square meter of coral. When the populations of this echinoderm, normally rare, increase in number, they can seriously damage the reef. Acanthaster blooms have been studied in many Indo-Pacific areas.
Often these blooms have been put in relation with the local extintion of the natural predators (like the triton shell or the napoleon wrasse), but actually all those predators, eating few starfishes in a week, could never control a demografic bloom. The triggering factor should be looked upon in the larval stage, in some event drastically reducing the early mortality (all sea stars produce hundreds of thousands of larvae).
Anyway, human induced environmental changes can be somehow at the origin of the phenomenon."

Species: Acanthaster planci

Sean

 

[KrisB]

Actually since the COT is an invasive species I think it's easy to say it's not a friend of the Hawaiian reefs.

The documentation you cited had no reference to *where* it's invasive.

An invasive species is necessarily defined alongside the region in which it is not a natural occurrence.

I saw no reference to Hawaii under the GISD documentation.

Furthermore, I think we need to be careful in defining a "demografic [sic] bloom" -- in the last year of diving Maui's reefs (roughly 230 dives), I've only seen a handful of CoT's, and I don't think I've seen more than one on any single dive.

Given that sample (and lacking any to the contrary), it would seem to me that we have a healthy population of both the CoT and the controlling species.

 

[ScubaSeanMaui]

Kris, try googling yourself. I'd like you to find any reference that says anything to the contrary...I'm sorry I cannot defer to your 230 dives in the past year as evidence that the COT is not an invasive species. I personally have seen many COT's at airport, at Mala, and many many at Honolua Bay...

Check the link below... I just put in Hawaii and Acanthaster planci and it came up as an invasive species...

Global Invasive Species Database

here's another one:

Invasion Biology Introduced Species Summary Project - Columbia University

Dive safely!

Sean

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The Crown of Thorns is much less of an issue than people think... and likely garners exceptionally bad press simply because of the painfulness of the sting.

Here is the main reason divers are concerned with irresponsibly taking TT's for their nice shell. Not many divers are complaining about the bothersome sting.

The coral colony above never recovered, if there is coral in that spot now it had to start from scratch. Yes, Cushion's do damage also, as seen below.

As with the Shark's Cove picture above it, this coral colony on the Sea Tiger was completely killed. Next is the only feeding TT I have ever encountered (Ulua Reef), and I see lot's of Cushions every dive.

So, you have seen a TT on nearly every Airport Beach dive lately? How often have you dove there? Do you have pictures to compare, is it always different, a few different, or possibly the same one every time?

Historically, there were more TT's. Many of the TT's taken were taken just for the shell. Now that there are fewer than there used to be, there is probably more damage being done to coral by COT's and Cushions than there was before. If too many TT's end up in one area, will some migrate to areas without TT's? Not if we decide based on a single dive site only mentality, as the extra one will end up on a shelf. Even if the meat is consumed, taking TT's now is not likely responsible in my and many other's eyes.

As for the phrase invasive species, it can be used with regard to an indigenous or native species when the numbers are out of balance. If we end up with a COT bloom (or Cushion bloom), they will be an invasive species. There have been times when COT's were invasive in Hawaii waters. If we essentially remove their only locally productive hunter, we are opening ourselves up to similar bad scenarios.

It would be nice if we could learn from the past and protect against the depleation of the natural balance. Identifying the current un-scientific semblance of balance should not lead to the conclusion that taking TT's as long as you eat them is alright.

 

[KrisB]

So, you have seen a TT on nearly every Airport Beach dive lately? How often have you dove there? Do you have pictures to compare, is it always different, a few different, or possibly the same one every time?

I've seen a helmet shell, not TT on these dives. I've just been corrected -- I thought they fed on the COT as well.

Identifying the current un-scientific semblance of balance should not lead to the conclusion that taking TT's as long as you eat them is alright.

I think I said responsible taking was acceptable. Incidentally, we did also define that responsible taking is difficult or impossible at many locations.

Please tell me:

how can it make any logical sense to complain about COT's but not the cushions? ESPECIALLY when the cushions are so much more plentiful?

Also, why do we complain about the COT's eating coral and not the TT's eating the COT's?

Or the turtles scraping themselves so hard on the coral as to break it off?

Or the eagle rays that just pulverize the coral trying to get at a shell fish?

These are ALL parts of the marine ecosystem, and while there might be SOME balance issues thanks to our involvement, at the moment, I do believe there are bigger concerns threatening our reefs, such as development, un-educated snorkelers and spear-fishers... AND GILL-NETTERS.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Post #13

In fact, I seem to recall hearing that the TT is also prized for its meat...

Post #20

Unless you're going to eat it and take it responsibly. I mean, really... what's the difference between grabbing a TT or buying a mahi sandwich at a restaurant?

Post #23

You'll note: we were talking about the TT being used for food.

Post #24

However, I seem to see one on nearly every dive at Airport... so perhaps if it got to the point where I was seeing two or three, it might be possible.

Post #26

Given that sample (and lacking any to the contrary), it would seem to me that we have a healthy population of both the CoT and the controlling species.

Post #30

I think I said responsible taking was acceptable. Incidentally, we did also define that responsible taking is difficult or impossible at many locations.

This thread is about TT's and possible mass migration (Ménage à Trois would count in my book). You'll note: You were the first (only) one to bring up eating them (Post #13). Since that post all but one of us have encouraged not even considering eating them as an excuse for taking a shell, and the other merely stated that Helmut's were eaten traditionally. After every no-take plea you have replied with a rational to eat/take them, over and over.

Even in your last post you qualify your responsible taking definition with at many locations. Evidently, if you were on a dive where you encountered three TT's it sounds like you would seriously consider taking one, and think that's acceptable for others as well. What if you took the only male (or female) thus likely eliminating a breeding pair?

Please KrisB, if you want to talk about bigger issues, start your own thread. You have again turned a nice informational thread into a Canadian Inquisition; Peace Out. :mooner: