Trees at Windy Point - Experience Level?

[humanphibian]

Well, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there diving it with a single yoke AL 80.

It's all about how much risk one is willing to assume but this thread is good in that some of these people may not be fully aware of the added dangers of diving in this area.

Yeah, IIRC there was a guy not too long ago that lost his life in that area. I'm not sure of the details but from what I remember he was not properly equipped for the proifile that was on his computer. There was alot of speculation at the time as to whether he got down into the dark water and didn't have proper lighting, got vertigo and ended up too deep and burned up his gas, or got narked and made some bad calls. Like I said I'm not sure of the details, just bits and pieces of what I read at the time, which was heresay, from what I gathered.

It is deep, dark, silty if you fan it, full of entanglement hazzards, and you can't be assured of a direct ascent. I think that puts it firmly in the advanced realm, and more likely in the grey area between what should be considered recreational, and what is considered technical.

 

[loosebits]

Yep, but I'm fully aware I can kill myself on doubles down there also. There are fewer scenarios I can imagine in which that can happen than with a single 80 but the way I choose to dive it simply mitigates some risk, not elminates it. I am comfortable with the level of risk I assume diving doubles using thirds with my usual buddy however I would be even safer if I chose not to dive to that depth. Those on single 80's are either ignorant of the risks or choose to accept more. I am not going to proclaim that someone with over 1000 dives is a moron for diving in the trees on a single 80.

As long as the risk added you assume doesn't affect others (e.g. a site closing from too many accidents - not likely at Lake Travis), it's all just personal choice.

 

[humanphibian]

I agree, the best that you can do for yourself, and those around you, is choose not to be stupid. Minimize every risk factor that you have control over, have a plan for dealing with the rest. Outside of that, it's out of your control. No diving is ABSOLUTLY safe.

 

[Crazyduck]

People do not understand the problems and how they cascade into something that they are not prepared for.

Often they see something of interest, go deeper than planned with no light, and its dark and they are picking up speed descending and might not know it. Before they realize they are way beyond their training in deep water, with no lights, narc’d, cold and all of a sudden they swim out to inspect a tree stump and loose there reference point on the wall.
Then everything they learned feels like its falling apart.

I tend to plan my dives around depth, O2 content of nitrox, and what my partner and myself want to accomplish. Then add the necessary tools to make that a reality. For dives below 100ft Al80 don’t cut it. I purchased steel LP 98’s years ago and just love them. If a single tank is being used I carry a staged 40 or 80 as bailout.

We don’t have enough mentoring going on for advanced divers wanting to move deeper. Instead we offer ‘deep diving classes’ that offer limited numbers of dives and leaves the students standing there on their own after the class. A mentor would be someone to dive with and learn along with the class and to dive with after the class. But that’s just my humble opinion.

 

[loosebits]

People do not understand the problems and how they cascade into something that they are not prepared for.

Often they see something of interest, go deeper than planned with no light, and its dark and they are picking up speed descending and might not know it. Before they realize they are way beyond their training in deep water, with no lights, narc’d, cold and all of a sudden they swim out to inspect a tree stump and loose there reference point on the wall.
Then everything they learned feels like its falling apart.

I tend to plan my dives around depth, O2 content of nitrox, and what my partner and myself want to accomplish. Then add the necessary tools to make that a reality. For dives below 100ft Al80 don’t cut it. I purchased steel LP 98’s years ago and just love them. If a single tank is being used I carry a staged 40 or 80 as bailout.

We don’t have enough mentoring going on for advanced divers wanting to move deeper. Instead we offer ‘deep diving classes’ that offer limited numbers of dives and leaves the students standing there on their own after the class. A mentor would be someone to dive with and learn along with the class and to dive with after the class. But that’s just my humble opinion.

I completely agree, for me an 80 doesn't cut it. It might for someone else. A lot of commercial divers think going 2000' into a cave without surface supplied gas, a surface support team and who knows what else doesn't cut it either but I choose to do it anyway (I'm not implying that surface supplied gas in a cave is at all practical or even possible). I am comfortable with that level of risk even though things can happen that my doubles and my isolator won't save me from.

Now, a mentor program would be a great thing. When I got my OW, we were told 130' max depth. I'm not sure what they are saying now but the idea of an newly carded AOW diver with 25 dives under his belt (one of them being at Terrell with his gauge shoved in the mud to meet the "deep" req't) going down to 115' in Travis and swimming through the trees is a recipe for Sudden High Intensity Training - specifically deep-Sudden High Intensity Training.

 

[AggieDad]

That is a great idea. I remember my first dives after certification and I wasn't scared out of my mind but I was scared I would do something stupid. Most newbies don't want hand holding but gentle guidance. Old story, but when I was a Captain for Muse Air out of Houston, one of my co-pilots had 19 years experience with the old Texas International airlines. This guy had more time in the DC-9 left seat than I had total time. I would ask him what I should do and he would reply "Your the Captain" so my standard reply was "If you see me doing something that would be done better another way, then as Captain I order you to tell me" Only once he said "you might want to try it this way". I learned a great deal from him in just a couple of months.
Being a mentor is rewarding and hard. I do it now for younger guys coming up. Diving needs to be open armed about taking new guys in and sharing, not telling, wisdom and experience. Don't be afraid or annoyed to take a newbie under your watch and help them to develop.

Also, the diver that died at Windy Point that was in one of the posts. I was there doing my AOW that day. His computer was locked out, he was solo with an AL80 and when they got the readings out of his computer, he had gone from 167 feet to the surface in 33 seconds. Tanks was bone dry and naturally the BC was full. By the time we got him out of the water, well CPR was only for show.

 

[chairmanTARAC]

well said aggiedad, That's the nice thing about this scubaboard and the members, Plenty of sharing.

 

[PvilleStang]

I remember my first dive out of open water... It was with two DM's and they said stay close and you'll be fine. They took me to the pinto out at Barstows W.P. and frankly I think I hit the law of thirds on my 80 on the way down. Once I realized I was with two totally competent divers that were watching out for me, it was an awesome. I had mentors help me all throughout my diving education, until I became proficient to go above and beyond their dive trainings. I couldn't have been more blessed to have them, and I think its the way everyone should come around. Now is it just me, or do some of y'all have a sudden urge to do some diving down in the trees now?!?

 

[Willie]

We don’t have enough mentoring going on for advanced divers wanting to move deeper. ... A mentor would be someone to dive with and learn along with the class and to dive with after the class. But that’s just my humble opinion.

I think that is an excellent idea as well. I make it a point to learn from all the folks I have made dives with.

At my experience level, everyone has more experience than me. But I also know that even someone with less overall experience can be invaluable if they have more experience in the particular location or with the particular profile. I have never felt pushed or led into something I was uncomfortable with either. Several of the folks that I have had the privilege to dive with have been very helpful and encouraging and I can hardly wait to dive with them again.

That said, I learn a lot from these discussions as well.

Willie

 

[archman]

The trees scare the pee out of me. I've never gone past the outer edge. And it seems that whenever I go down there, it's always the first time for whoever's my dive buddy. I rarely see eyeballs get as wide as they do when these folks bump into the first full-fledged tree trunk. All they do is stare at me like frightened puppies until I wave them to turn back.

Granted I'm no tech diver. And after being at Barstow's when an Advanced student "disappeared" in the grove a few years back (they found his body a few hours later), I am even more fully aware of my own diving limitations. I'll happily sit on the shallow training platforms and feed vienna sausages to the fishes.