Training in your own gear

[fnfalman]

Is it standard in the US that dive shops contract that you must buy your gear from them?

If it isn't in any small print, then I can't see how a LDS can object that you made a consumer decision to purchase elsewhere?.....providing the gear is safe and suitable.

Granted that my SCUBA shop experience is limited to Southern California and though I haven't visited ALL the shops, I have visited a multitude of them throughout LA, Orange County, San Diego and even Bakersfield. No shop that I know of makes or make it sound like the OW student have to buy gears from them, not even Sport Chalet chain stores. The MUST HAVEs are mask, snorkels, gloves, boots and fins. The rest are rental included in the class. After the class, the shops would persuade you to buy from them and to buy certain items, but none that I've talked to (they don't know that I'm a certified diver) would use any sort of strongarm tactics to make you buy gears from them.

I will not take any class with any shop that say I have to buy my own set of gear & equipment for OW training, much less buying said gear & equipment from them. Supporting your LDS is one thing (and I buy 90% of my stuff from my LDS), being forced into partaking in unscuprulous tactics is another.

 

[RickHeil]

In hindsight I've much more enjoyed and learned more in classes where I had my own equipment. I think its due to the fact that you have a limited number of tasks/distractions you can focus on and if your focused/distracted with rental 'issues' or simply that the rental gear is somehow different than what your accustom too then your not focused on the next skills or techniques your trying to learn.

But that is balanced with the reality that you'll also want to often try different gear to see what works best for you for the diving style you have or want to do.

So thinking about that, ideally I'd say depending on the class/task I'd try to take classes with my own gear to minimize equipment distraction and maximize the beginning of good muscle memory in learning skills in your normal config. SO buy the gear hat you think you want, since thats the gear thats likely distracting you from learning new skills and building experience.

From my experience balancing the 'distraction' factor and general importance of the gear I'd suggest owning in somewhat this order;


- Mask, Fins, Snorkel - key here is finding a mask that fits and you like. Reality is you will buy several over the years, but spares aren't a bad idea.
* BC - Your BC is your primary platform upon which everything else is built. Read up on the pros and cons of different styles and think thru what you want to do and which will best fit your goals. The act of doing this itself will be good training and knowledge. Personally I started in a Zeagle and loved it, no regrets. Now I dive a DiveRite BP/Wing since I'm getting into more technical diving. Then again I'm looking to buy a Nomad to learn sidemount diving... so change is a constant.
* Thermal protection - Find a good fitting wet suit that you like. Bottom line (IMHO) is the difference in most is pretty minor now,and at the beginning level you won't notice the difference. All the major bands are excellent. Here again, readup and find one you like - liking your selection and knowing why is the 'right' answer. For a Dry Suit (I bought a White Fusion last year) here trying out several different brands and styles is key since they are all different. I landed on the one I like since it matches what I wanted and love it.

Less urgent
* Regulator/SPG - Rentals tend to be pretty good, and the difference in good to best you probably won't notice at rec depths and when your still focused on other skills like buoyancy control. Here buy a better brand and you'l have it for a long time. Generally the opinions you'll see in SB are pretty helpful. You'll want a good reg setup soon after your BC.
* Dive Computer - If you doing any multi-day multi-dives like a trip or vacation a computer will give you both much more dive time and more safely as ironic as that sounds. So you'll dive more, and more safely by having a computer. This is not to say you shouldn't understand how to plan a dive and in fact plan your dive and dive your plan. But having, understanding, and using a computer is a great aid to safer and more enjoyable diving. Here again, all the major brands are excellent, research them and find the one that makes sense for what you want to do. Again, the research itself will be very educational.
* Other stuff - get the gear you need for safe dives. Doing ocean drift dives? Then be sure you have a Safety Sausage. Diving anywhere a fisherman may have been, get a knife, etc. The key hear is having the right gear for the right dive and having thought through (and practiced) using it. Where should it be stored, how to you use it, putting it back. You don't want to be 'renting' safety equipment since by definition when you need it is not when you want to be figuring it out!

Hope that helps!

As for dive shops I guess I've been lucky. Both in South Florida, South CA, and in Utah the shops I've gone to are professional and try to be helpful. Any dive shop that is more than an OW factory should be based on providing experienced, knowledgeable assistance. Yea they rightly should be ticked off if you try on all their stuff (with the shop paying the cost of carrying the inventory for you to check out) and then you go buy it online. That's just not right, in my opinion. Conversely, when I know what I want and need buying online seems fine to me and I've never had a shop I frequent question that. A dive shop is a business after all and if you want the ability to try things, use their pool (which I do), learn from their experience then you should buy from them.
Find a good professional dive shop, not a open water factory.... you will not only get generally good experienced advice hopefully you'll find a community of like mind divers - both other peers as well as instructors - who will be a fun group to learn and explore with. But remember too, they need to pay bills, salaries and so on.. so try to recommend people to them for class, take classes yourself and yes try to buy gear from them. I've not found a dive shop yet that was a charity (and not sure I'd want charity, thinking about it). The flipside is it scares me to think someone might buy all their gear from on online dive store and jump into the ocean without knowing why they have what, if they have what they need and no training to use it...

My two cents for what they are worth...
Safe and fun diving!!!!!!

 

[rstofer]

Is it standard in the US that dive shops contract that you must buy your gear from them?

If it isn't in any small print, then I can't see how a LDS can object that you made a consumer decision to purchase elsewhere?.....providing the gear is safe and suitable.

There is no contract and no real requirement to buy any gear from anyone. But there are expectations of the LDS and there is attitude!

"How come you bought your stuff over there?"
"Don't you know you should buy locally instead of on the Internet? How are you going to get air fills if we go out of business?"
"That <brand name? stuff isn't anywhere near as good as what we sell for less."
"You better bring that (brand new) gear in so we can do a safety inspection before class."
"You won't get a warranty with that stuff you bought on the Internet and it's all grey market stuff. Who knows what inside that regulator. Probably reject parts bought as trash and then assembled (and put in factory boxes)."
And on it goes...

There was a very long thread here a few months back about a student being tossed out of a Nitrox class for buying their computer elsewhere. I hope I am recalling this correctly.

It's not that the questions above are hard to answer and a diver may have very good reasons for buying the gear elsewhere, including via the Internet. It is the conversation that is ugly. I'm not the kind of person that takes much crap. I'm basically not in the crap taking business.

What Thalassamania was saying is that if you find a truly independent instructor, they won't care where you bought your stuff. They aren't in the business of selling stuff anyway. They're instructors. They will expect quality gear but they won't care if it is ScubaPro, AquaLung, Oceanic or whatever as long as it is in good condition.

What I said earlier was that, having already decided on an LDS and having made a commitment to them for training, it is best to avoid the ugly conversation that WILL ensue if the OP shows up with gear from another source. It's better having made this commitment to just delay the high dollar purchases until after the training and avoid the crap. Besides, after the training, the shop knows you can buy anything from anybody. Your involvement with them can come to an immediate end. Pricing may improve when they know you can shop anywhere without their pre-training wrath.

That's why you want to use a disposable LDS for your OW training (if you are not using an independent instructor). You buy the absolute minimum gear from them, take the OW course and walk away. You then buy your gear wherever you want, deal with the service issue in whatever way works for you and when you go for more advanced training you use a different LDS. They will see you walk in already certified and it is expected you have the bulk of your equipment. A simple plan for avoiding conflict.

Richard

 

[Thalassamania]

...
What Thalassamania was saying is that if you find a truly independent instructor, they won't care where you bought your stuff. They aren't in the business of selling stuff anyway. They're instructors. They will expect quality gear but they won't care if it is ScubaPro, AquaLung, Oceanic or whatever as long as it is in good condition....

What you are saying is quite correct in general ... however, in my case I have a very exacting equipment list of gear "approved" for new item purchase, by brand and model. I will, of course, try to work with students who have gear that is not on the list, but I make no guarantees about that, for example "dry snorkels," masks with small purge valves, BC with way too much lift or strange remote control inflation/deflation systems, or wet suit that don't fit right or airplane buckle style weight belts are unacceptable.

 

[Splash-X]

There are two sides to the argument.

1.) Learning in your own gear.

In my opinion, learning to dive while using your own gear will help you, the diver, become comfortable with your gear and setup. You will be ready to go diving with your own gear out of class. You wont get different gear when you go from rental shop to rental shop because you already have your own. I think if you can learn in your own gear, great. If not, it's not the end of the world.


2.) How do you know what the right gear for you is?

I think all too often, a LDS will push the "learn in your own gear" topic, they sell you the gear only for you to figure out 10 - 20 dives later that you prefer a different style of fin, different style BC, different style mask. You only gain this knowledge by using different gear that shops have to offer.

someone who starts with a jacket style BC may wish they had a rear inflate or a backplate and wing or a BC with pockts in X position or don't like Y configuration.



Looking back at some of the students I've worked with and the trips I've led, it would probably be wise to learn using the shops rental gear and then try renting gear after class from other shops that carry different brands. Shop around, pickup some of the diving magazines that give reviews like Dive Training or PADIs Sport Diver.

Nothing is worse than gear that isn't comfortable. While the dive shops will tell you "if it doesn't work we'll switch it out"... often times by the time you realize there is something better in your price range it's too late.

 

[rstofer]

What you are saying is quite correct in general ... however, in my case I have a very exacting equipment list of gear "approved" for new item purchase, by brand and model. I will, of course, try to work with students who have gear that is not on the list, but I make no guarantees about that, for example "dry snorkels," masks with small purge valves, BC with way too much lift or strange remote control inflation/deflation systems, or wet suit that don't fit right or airplane buckle style weight belts are unacceptable.

Yes, I did slightly misquote your position and I apologize. It was not my intent.

Choosing among a short list of specific equipment will help the student focus on what is needed for diving, not the over-hyped stuff that marketing thinks they need. When I look at the changes over the last 20 years, I sometimes fail to see the improvements.

I'm afraid I miss the part about the weight belt buckle. I think you posted once about using the old fashioned wire type buckle but I think those might be tough to find. What is your current recommendation?

BTW, I'm using a harness (no hips) so the answer is really just for general information and perhaps my swimming pool belt.

Richard

 

[Killer&Griller]

You know you could always mention to the dive shop up front that you are going to purchase your gear and hope that after some research, they could come close to matching it....... Just a thought.....

You should support your LDS whenever you can. You also have to make some common sense calls, especially when it comes to $. I can see paying 10% more but not 40%. The bit about warranty service..... not usually an issue. Don't let that be the major factor in overpaying for gear. If you buy from an authorized dealer, you will get service, period. If it isn't from a auth dealer, you better save enough to buy another one, repairs aren't cheap.

If an LDS is going to give you the cold shoulder for buying gear elsewhere, they are probably not going to be ranked really high on your list anyways. At least you aren't falling for the "graduation" program alot of LDS use.

The instructor is getting paid to instruct you either way. It sounds like you are dead set on making your purchases up front. Go ahead and test the water with them on prices. At least you gave them the opportunity.

If you buy off of the net, make it count. For example, it's harder to return a BC because you thought it would "feel better" after you used it.

 

[rstofer]

There are two sides to the argument.

2.) How do you know what the right gear for you is?

I think all too often, a LDS will push the "learn in your own gear" topic, they sell you the gear only for you to figure out 10 - 20 dives later that you prefer a different style of fin, different style BC, different style mask. You only gain this knowledge by using different gear that shops have to offer.

someone who starts with a jacket style BC may wish they had a rear inflate or a backplate and wing or a BC with pockts in X position or don't like Y configuration.

Sometimes people's ideas change with regard to gear. BC vs BP/W, split vs blade fins, long hose vs short hose primary, drysuit vs wetsuit, etc. In some cases this means buying more equipment and perhaps selling the older stuff on eBay.

Or, you can hold onto the old stuff just to have spare gear. For the 4 of us, we have enough gear for 6 or 7 divers. That includes the high $ stuff like BCs/BP/Ws and regulators. Add a wetsuit and we can expand to 5 with almost no cost. Or 6...

In this sport you tend to accumulate stuff over time. No buying decisions are completely irrevocable.

Richard

 

[imwright1985]

i would call the lds or stop in and ask what rental equipment they have in your size. if they have a good variety their instructors handle it regularly and will be with you so they can help as you need help, if your not doing a weekend cert class you will have plenty of pool time to try some of the variety they offer and you can get a little more of a rough idea of what gear characteristics you like. also ask questions about different gear as your finding things you like. this will allow you to try a variety of gear that is usually included in course cost

a great example that i have is with my BC i have a Zeagle, I love it and the release is about as simple as it can get for weight integration for an emergency weight drop, but you cant remove weights for handing up easily when in water. one of my friends has the mares dragon, i like the fact when we are diving personal boats he can pull the weights on his bc easily and put on the dive platform or hand up easily so his gear weighs alot less when getting it into the boat

another thing alot of people say on here is your training doesnt stop when you pass your OW each dive adds training experience weather its learning to control breathing better, getting better handle on bouyancy, equalizing better.

I wouldnt try getting locked into gear just one or 2 of your LDS service but make sure you can find reasonable service fairly easy for what you buy

 

[Lead_carrier]

jtpwils, Most of what has been said is very sound advice. I prefer the ones that get you through class with the shops rental gear. Especially if they have a selection of gear to choose from. Maybe even the instructor has a couple of different sets that you can test. Try back inflate, jacket, backplate and wings. Feel how they fit you and how you fit them.

You may get lucky and even find an instructor and shop that cares that you learn and enjoy diving. I know folks, the two don't go together. Shops only exist to screw new divers out of their money while they are getting rich. (sarcasm there)

It has been slightly implied that only independent instructors will give you an honest opinion on the type gear you need. While they aren't tied to dive shops by contract and can suggest different brands many will only suggest types and brands that they can get a kickback on.. They will go to the local dive shops and cut deals with them for kickbacks or do everything possible to steer students away from them. And yes, I do know that for a fact. I've worked in a dive shop for too many years and know a number of instructors that do it.

Rent it, borrow it or try it out someway if possible before you buy it. When you find out what you like. Research it. And have a blast diving.