Training fatality claims Utah woman in Florida

[heavierthanlead]

So you would prefer to certify them in 25' of water and for there first non instructed dive jump on a boat that usually dives 60 to 80 ft in Jupiter/WPB. I couldn't sleep at night knowing I certified divers that I knew weren't ready to dive. By dives 3 & 4 you need to get them ready for real world dives. I've worked on dive boats where divers are shocked that the normal dives are 60 ft or deeper. Come on guys train them.

Oh, brother. So a Midwest-trained diver, having dove in doubled-up 7mm wetsuits/hoods & gloves/10%+ of their own body weight in lead, and under more adverse natural conditions than a tropical trained diver, is not "trained", eh? And, we must all be diving/training in a "fantasy" not "real" world? Shall I bring up the occasions I've witnessed of "trained" divers with only tropical experience, attempting to dive in temperate waters, with multiple thermoclines? That training tends to quickly unravel...

The point is, it's all about comfort level. It's not about rushing them to x depth, because that's either "real" diving, or it's "just the way we've always done it". Many may indeed be ready for it, but what of those that aren't? I'm well aware that 60' is permitted within standards, under ideal conditions, on day 2 of open water training. But, so is anything deeper than 15'. So... what's the rush? I train comfortable divers... the depth will come, as their personal comfort level increases with experience. They know enough, that jumping on some boat that dives to...80' is not only beyond what's recommended for their novice status, but is ill-advised. But, people drive over the speed limit too, right?

 

[Chuckitall]

I meant nothing by mid America training, even hear there seems to be alot of 25 ft training. I work on a boat and alot of them are not even ready for a basic boat dive. I know, you can't take the time to do more dives with these students, but when there other divers on the boat many times we have to dummy down the dives for the beginners. No other choice sometimes, but customers can get upset by this. Don't get me wrong I enjoy helping and working with the new divers, but some act like they have never seen an instructor. BTW, WWW couldn't handle your cold diving, lol.

Oh, brother. So a Midwest-trained diver, having dove in doubled-up 7mm wetsuits/hoods & gloves/10%+ of their own body weight in lead, and under more adverse natural conditions than a tropical trained diver, is not "trained", eh? And, we must all be diving/training in a "fantasy" not "real" world? Shall I bring up the occasions I've witnessed of "trained" divers with only tropical experience, attempting to dive in temperate waters, with multiple thermoclines? That training tends to quickly unravel...

The point is, it's all about comfort level. It's not about rushing them to x depth, because that's either "real" diving, or it's "just the way we've always done it". Many may indeed be ready for it, but what of those that aren't? I'm well aware that 60' is permitted within standards, under ideal conditions, on day 2 of open water training. But, so is anything deeper than 15'. So... what's the rush? I train comfortable divers... the depth will come, as their personal comfort level increases with experience. They know enough, that jumping on some boat that dives to...80' is not only beyond what's recommended for their novice status, but is ill-advised. But, people drive over the speed limit too, right?

 

[gotair?]

My heart goes out to her family and to the crew. I do have a question for everyone. When I was OW certified, it was my understanding that OW students were not allowed to complete their training from a boat. Am I wrong about this? Is it ok for Instructors to take OW students on a boat before they complete thier course?

Thank you for your time,

 

[Splitlip]

I got certified in 1973 from a boat in Palm Beach. My daughter was certified in I think '07. From a boat in Palm Beach. If not from a boat, then where? Especially considering the fact that their fifth dive will likely be from a boat. IJS

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Some places - such as the Florida Keys - there really is no diving that isn't boat diving. Yet people get certified there, so I can't imagine it would be against OW policy.

(Although to respond to "if not from a boat then where?" my initial OW certification was attained via shore dive in a lake.)

 

[Simon-]

My heart goes out to her family and to the crew. I do have a question for everyone. When I was OW certified, it was my understanding that OW students were not allowed to complete their training from a boat. Am I wrong about this? Is it ok for Instructors to take OW students on a boat before they complete thier course?

Thank you for your time,

Of course it is ok for OW students to be on a boat.

Tell you what, let's certify everyone by only doing shore dives in 6m of water. Send them off to go dive.

Hang on, they get to a boat and don't have a clue how to get on, where to put their equipment, can't set-up their equipment as the boat is not as still as dry land, they are scared of a back-roll entry (or giant stride as we do off dhows), they are scared because they are starting the dive out of their depth.

NDL's is something they have learnt and understood, but as they have only been in 6m of water, they would run out of gas before they ran out of time. They are now at 16m and are so abosorbed by the fact they are deeper, they don't realise their NDL is rapidly approaching.

I always, weather and sea conditions permitting, take students on at least 2 boat dives during their OW course.

 

[Hatul]

Around here the shallow dives of 20-30 ft are more difficult because of the surge. Also as someone else pointed out buoyancy is easier to maintain on a deeper dive. 40-60 ft is probably the easiest sweet spot here in Cal.

Adam

 

[vladimir]

In general...

...if it is a bad idea for a student to go to 60' in the company of an instructor on his last day of training, it must certainly be a bad idea to give that student a certification card proclaiming him qualified to dive to 60' independently. That's obvious, isn't it?

Those arguing against 60' certification dives would be on solider ground arguing for more certification dives. Maybe the dive to 60' should be dive number 6, or dive number 8--that would be a tenable argument. Alternatively, maybe the certification card should say "good to 30'" (though a lot of us like to get close to the bottom when we dive).

 

[cloudswinger]

I'm not sure what you learn at 60 feet that you can't learn at 30-40 feet. Actually diving at 60 feet is easier because of buoyancy stability. In Monterey people get their OW cert in the 20 40 range. Unless you dive from a boat most dives are 30-50 feet. You can dive the trench from shore at Monastery Beach and dive 100's of feet if you want. The deeper you go the darker and colder it gets. Visibility is an issue and the shallow dive is the safer dive if there is a problem and new divers have problems.

With all the extra equipment (full 7mm, hood, gloves, more weight) and the conditions (cold, poor visibility, surge, current,waves, kelp) the multitasking that a new diver faces in Monterey at 30-40 dive is plenty of challenge.

See, people are comparing apples to oranges. The conditions you have would probably warrant training at a shallower depth. Florida conditions are completely different. Visibility doesn't change much between 40 to 60 or even 80 ft. You could lay on the ocean floor at 60 and see the boat up top. I've done a 100ft dive and was still able to see the boat from depth. Surge is usually nonexistent at the deeper depths. This time of year 3mm is fine, sea temp is in the 80s, at depth it'd probably be only a few degrees less. And no Kelp. How much more ideal conditions can you get?

Plus if they are diving in Palm Beach, most of the reefs are at 60, if you were to go to 40 all you'd see is sand, open water or the bottom 20 ft down. The shallower reefs are further south. I'm sure that there are Florida divers that may never have done any dives not from a boat. The only reason that doesn't apply to me is that I trained in N Florida, where we did some dives in the springs. Boat diver certification should be automatic here, just like dry suit diving would be for some other places.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My heart goes out to her family and to the crew. I do have a question for everyone. When I was OW certified, it was my understanding that OW students were not allowed to complete their training from a boat. Am I wrong about this? Is it ok for Instructors to take OW students on a boat before they complete thier course?

Thank you for your time,

There is no restriction against doing OW checkout dives off a boat. Even here in Puget Sound, where shore diving is predominant, some instructors will opt for at least the final day of boat diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)