Training Death in Coz - what could have been done differently?

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I appreciate your respones - which I understand are addressing the "real issue" I've raised here, which is my heightened level of concern given my recent reading of the aforementioned thread.

The best answer to that was this
by meierdierck
the game face you need to project to her is one of confidence, in her and yourself, and address concerns in a positive, constructive manner, holding onto her will not help her

In response I'll say this:
1.) I know not to be a second instructor - for both our benefits because I'll confuse her but most importantly I
don't know squat about Scuba Training
which I well understand.

2.) The instructor has kids and trains kids as well. He is currently training another 11 year old and 14 year old.
3.) My daughter is much more mature than her 12 years suggest. Certainly much more responsible than I was at her age.

As I said, the incident, just brought the tragic possibilities to light.
 
Remember that you are a student in the class also and you don't know squat about Scuba Training.

If you can't do that then maybe you & your daughter shouldn't get certified together. If you're just worrying about her then you'll interfere with her training and miss a lot of your training.

When my wife was certified on our Honeymoon the instructor reluctantly let me "accompany" her on her training dives. It was at times difficult to just keep my distance as this is the woman I Love and I wanted to be sure she was as safe as possible.

To keep myself occupied I just took my AOW at the same time and I was able to be near her doing my own stuff except for the two training dives I did to 90 & 106 ft.

Was thinking the exact same-----when our last 2 got certified, I never touched the water on any activities-----& the instructor(same for both but not the same one that certified my wife, daughter & I--he moved about a hundred miles away between our certs. & the 2 boys certs.) & I were/are very close friends---I let him do the training & teaching.....
 
THe first thing that can be done to ensure safety in open water is adequate pool training. If a diver is properly trained in confined water then the chances of an incident in Open Water are greatly reduced. The question now becomes what is proper confined water training. There are many different answers depending on agency and instructor and the student. My agency requires 16 hours in the pool. That's a good bit of time to get someone comfortable and competent with skills and skills under task loading. Some feel it's enough that they can do the skill.

Take mask clearing. My OW instructor said if he demo'd the skill and I returned it and it was like looking in a mirror that was good. I was happy with that. Since then I've come to the realization that repeating the skill while kneeling on the bottom and planted there was not mastering it at all. I require my OW students to perform the skill while hovering horizontal, swimming, sharing air, etc all in midwater before I consider them to have got it.

What this does is make sure the student is truly comfortable in the water. Along with all the other skills we do and task loading exercises we perform I'm 99% sure that by the time we hit the lake that there will not be any incidents but I'm always prepared for one. I assisted with a class that went very well, no issues, no indications of any problems. Except no one knew that one student would get spooked by an overly friendly catfish! They did not bolt but it took a hand on theirs to stop them from trying. Some things cannot be forseen. But if you and your daughter are put through some challenges in the pool and things go well chances are very good that they will go well in open water. Choose your class and instructor carefully. choose one who teaches the panic cycle and how to stop it. Most of all choose one who will teach to your needs and address your concerns.
 
After you are both certified, some things to consider:

When you dive with your daughter, there should be an experienced adult diving with you. This is not so much for your daughter's safety, but for yours. If you have an emergency in the water, your child may not be able to help you. You are essentially a "solo" diver when diving with your child, much like an instructor is "solo" when taking a student on a dive. But as a new diver, you do not have the experience level and problem solving ability (yet) that an instructor does.

You will also need to be very honest with yourself about your own abilities. Being the dive buddy for a child goes beyond the duties of being the dive buddy for an adult, and your own skill should match that increased level of care.

I already had about 700 dives before I began diving with my kids. I will not take my kids diving unless my wife (who has around 200 dives) is along on the dive.

Good advice above. Like many others I got certified with my wife (in Belize). Everything went fine with no incidents during certification or our first dives (all led by a DM). But during the process I became aware of the balance needed to watch out for my wife as her buddy while also taking care of myself as a newly certified but unexperienced and low skilled diver. I understand the convenience of family and friends getting certified together and then being buddies. But I think there is also wisdom for separate certification and then advancing one's skills before taking on the buddy role, ideally doing your first dives after certification with a much more experienced buddy. Out here in CA I cringe when I hear someone say they and their buddy just got certified now they want to know where the two of them should shore dive or what boat they should go out on, knowing in CA we don't typically have DM's in the water and two freshly certified divers are going out on their own. Four certification dives don't make a diver or generally a good buddy, doing lots of dives with more experienced divers usually does.
 
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When my son first ventured into scuba diving last summer I took him to a shop owned by a friend (who had taught me 10 years ago). He recommended on of his instructors as particullarly good with kids. I had dived with him before and knew him to be a good diver. When I took my son in on the day of his first open water dives the instructor was very surprised when I stopped him loading my gear in the truck. I sat on the beach and had the pleasure of seeing my son walk out of the water with a hugh smile on his face. I am sure that he, the instructor and I were all much more comfortable wthout me in the water.
The important thing is to find an instructor you trust and then let him or her get on with the training.
I had a great time diving with my son later in the week after he had finished his course.
 
jtpwils:
an instructor and training diver are 15-20 feet below surface and the diver panicks and heads for the surface. Would the best thing be for the instructor to already have hold of the trainees equipment preventing them from ascending? Be alert and try to grab them and prevent ascension? Or let them go and hope they remember to exhale on the way up?

It still depends on the situation. If we we are sharing air, I already have a hold on my student. If the student is clearing a mask, I'm ready to grab them. If we're swimming along, I'll chase them down.

I agree with Jim, adequate instruction in the pool is the best defense against having a diver panic in the first place. In the case to which you refer, there was apparently a mask problem which led to panic. I do not believe any student should ever be introduced to SCUBA until all mask issues are resolved. If that was truly the case, it sounds like something that could have been prevented. I haven't seen the age of the child, but that could be another factor. Very sad situation.
 
Since then I've come to the realization that repeating the skill while kneeling on the bottom and planted there was not mastering it at all. I require my OW students to perform the skill while hovering horizontal, swimming, sharing air, etc all in midwater before I consider them to have got it. .

Choose one who teaches the panic cycle and how to stop it. Most of all choose one who will teach to your needs and address your concerns.

We're doing both of those things...why...because I've seen Jim suggest this on other threads and he motivated me to talk to our instructor about it before deciding to hire him. Thus we're doing it.

Thanks Jim
 
Good discussion and good thread. It raises a whole host of interesting questions and considerations for parents/chidlren getting certified together &/or diving together post-certification. However, I must take strong issue with this statemenet:

Now to the incident: If it was a lung-expansion injury, that is entirely preventable with a good instructor and good class. If you follow the instructors directions in class and in the water, no problems.

This is, at best, a gross over-simplification and at worst, just plain wrong and misleading.

I have been teaching diving since 1978. I've certified thousands of divers. And I will tell you there is NOTHING scarier to an instructor than to have your student panic and bolt to the surface.

You have a millisecond to react and - IF you're within arm's reach of said student - you're faced with the choice of holding them down to prevent the embolism . . . and possibly drowning them, or riding them up to the surface hoping to get the regulator back in their mouth or get them exhaling . . . and possibly having them embolise despite your efforts.

While this is all going on, time moves in slow motion and you are thinking to yourself, "Do NOT die!! Breathe!!!! Do NOT die!!! Breathe!!!" And no matter what you do, if it's isn't a 100% successful outcome you will be second-guessed by arm-chair experts and the plantiff's lawyers. Lots of fun.

I don't want to sound like I'm coming down too hard on LeadTurn SD but your statement is just waaaay too cavalier, based on my experience. And if, in your teaching experience, you can turn me on to some new magical panic-prevention cure-all that's been working for you, I will be happy to sit humbly at your feet and listen.

Bad things can happen to good instructors. And no matter how well you think you know your students or how well you think you've planned things out, there is no such thing as the perfect plan.

And the idea that the instructor will simply get hold of the student and magically "fix" everything everytime is simply fiction. I've seen small women drag big macho instructors to the surface like they were twigs. Panic is a powerful thing and the student who has the crappy kick suddenly becomes the Incredible Hulk in fins when panic sets in.

Simply put, panic kills.

Panic is not a rational response. It's an irrational response to a threat ("I'm going to die") that's perceived as very real. So when you start discussing irrational processes in a rational manner, there's already a logical disconnect with the proposed solution.

So to simply state that "it's entirely preventable" just over-simpliefies things IMHO. The unexpected happens. As instructors (and divers too), we have to be preapred to deal with it as best we can. But we can't just wish it away.

JTPWILS, the best advice I can give you is to monitor your comfort level. If there's a skill you're unsure of, get in some more practice time. Be very honest with your instructor. Don't be afraid to be afraid.

Probably the best thing to remember, especially with mask clearing, is that as long as you can breathe, anything is solveable. I always have my students spend a decent amount of time breathing off the reg with their mask totally off to get them used to the idea that if the reg's in your mouth and functioning, problems can be solved.

Again specific to mask clearing, if you're worried about water up your nose, exhale through your nose throughout the exercise. Slow down. Take your time.

LeadTurn SD does touch one one area I agree with when he says "with a good class". It points out that a lot of the level of safety comes from YOU, the student. No one is more directly responsible for your safety in the water than you are. If you're not comfortable with something, "No, I'll do it later" is always a better choice than "I hope I don't kill myself doing this."

- Ken
 
As a diver and a parent of diving children I'd honestly recommend against getting certified together.

I'd also strongly recommend getting at least a dozen or so dives in yourself before your daughter starts. Simply put, you need to feel reasonably comfortable in the water, and to have reached a certain level of confidence in your own abilities.

My kids started diving several years after my wife and I started. And we're very glad we waited that long as we were able to view their instruction without being engaged in any way than as proud parents watching their kids. And we had a well developed relationship with their instructor that allowed us not only to decide he was the guy, but also to really relax about safety concerns.

Those are my thoughts, and as always, your mileage may vary :)
 
As a diver and a parent of diving children I'd honestly recommend against getting certified together.

I couldn't agree with this more....

When my daughter finished her OW I was already Rescue Certified with 40+ logged dives.

Since her certification we have dove together twice and it was great, I'm looking forward to our next dives together (this Sunday).
 
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