Tough love for the industry's lithium addiction

[BRT]

I dunno.

If infrequent use of Li-on batteries, especially unattended charging by under-educated divers on destination vacations was strongly correlated with battery fires, then I'd expect that every room in Casa Mexican and most of the other hotels in Cozumel, Key Largo, Utilla, Bonaire, etc, would be smoldering pits by now from all the fires resulting from overnight charging before the next day's dive.

I'm not in any way disputing that Li-on battery fires are highly energetic and dangerous. However, a fire does seem to be a very rare event. A Li-on battery fire is quite dramatic, and almost by definition it is happening to a piece of equipment owned by someone who's got technical/gadget/electronic toys...which overlaps with the set of people who've got cameras nearby, post to social media, etc. In other words, these fires may be over-reported, proportional to their rate at which they occur.


Of course, all of that stuff was just written by someone who began reading this thread and then promptly unplugged the battery that had been charging in the basement for a couple of weeks.

Sure makes you think, doesn't it? I just inherited a 60 amp hour 24 volt lithium battery that was run below where the system could charge it and am trying to bring it back. Looks like there is nothing wrong with it but I'm charging it on a slab and unplugging it when we are not there.

 

[wgw04024]

I dunno.

If infrequent use of Li-on batteries, especially unattended charging by under-educated divers on destination vacations was strongly correlated with battery fires, then I'd expect that every room in Casa Mexican and most of the other hotels in Cozumel, Key Largo, Utilla, Bonaire, etc, would be smoldering pits by now from all the fires resulting from overnight charging before the next day's dive.

Exactly. All these places would at some point have caught on fire if Li Ion batteries did indeed make 'the sky fall' by now. I guess it's possible, but far to convenient and excuse for this recent catastrophe.

 

[Bob DBF]

So here's a thought maybe someone can shed some light on. If these lithium batteries are SO dangerous, why isn't it common place for houses to be igniting routinely because of them. They must be being used on more than just dive boats no? If it were that much of a risk, I would expect to see house fires galore being started by this.

There is a difference between are SO dangerous, and can be dangerous. Not what happens in every case, but what can happen in the worst case with the wrong chain of events. Kind of like a pile of oily rags, in most cases nothing happens, however some times there is spontaneous combustion, no big deal if there is no other fuel around, but put it in a corner of the garage with some wood scraps and a gas can nearby... A fiberglass boat is a well built pile of wood scraps and unrecognized can of gas all rolled into one. Once a fire gets a started aboard a fiberglass boat, it is hard to impossible to stop, it's not unreasonable to take precautions with a source of ignition, whether a battery or a pile of rags, which may or may not start a fire.

On a boat, you cannot just step outside and wait for the fire department to show up in a few minutes, there is no where to go but in the water and possibly wait hours for help. Because of that, anything that can be a fire hazard on a boat is controlled. Even back when everyone smoked, it was restricted to specific areas, and at times completely stopped throughout the entire boat, due to the possibility of fire.

It is not unreasonable, once one knows there is an issue with batteries having the possibility of starting a fire, to mitigate the hazard for the safety of the boat and its passengers. Regardless of whether they were the cause of the Conception fire, or not.



Bob

 

[wgw04024]

There is a difference between are SO dangerous, and can be dangerous. Not what happens in every case, but what can happen in the worst case with the wrong chain of events. Kind of like a pile of oily rags, in most cases nothing happens, however some times there is spontaneous combustion, no big deal if there is no other fuel around, but put it in a corner of the garage with some wood scraps and a gas can nearby... A fiberglass boat is a well built pile of wood scraps and unrecognized can of gas all rolled into one. Once a fire gets a started aboard a fiberglass boat, it is hard to impossible to stop, it's not unreasonable to take precautions with a source of ignition, whether a battery or a pile of rags, which may or may not start a fire.

On a boat, you cannot just step outside and wait for the fire department to show up in a few minutes, there is no where to go but in the water and possibly wait hours for help. Because of that, anything that can be a fire hazard on a boat is controlled. Even back when everyone smoked, it was restricted to specific areas, and at times completely stopped throughout the entire boat, due to the possibility of fire.

It is not unreasonable, once one knows there is an issue with batteries having the possibility of starting a fire, to mitigate the hazard for the safety of the boat and its passengers. Regardless of whether they were the cause of the Conception fire, or not.



Bob

I'm completely on board with all that. What I'm saying is for ALOT of people to just jump on the 'it must of been the batteries' train, is a little to easy. I'll be honest, I've heard maybe 'a little' about these batteries, but really it hasn't come across my radar much. Again, with all the charging going on in hotels and dive ops, you'd think it would happen with some regularity if these were all ticking time bombs.

 

[dmaziuk]

... A fiberglass boat is a well built pile of wood scraps and unrecognized can of gas all rolled into one. Once a fire gets a started aboard a fiberglass boat, it is hard to impossible to stop, it's not unreasonable to take precautions with a source of ignition, whether a battery or a pile of rags, which may or may not start a fire.

$5 a pop: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GCHBQJS (and you may notice it says "Lipo", not "Li-Ion" but maybe some of 'em scooter batteries that may have been on that boat were Lipos) and if you place it on a table not made of and/or surrounded by dry kindling, you should be just fine.

Now whether a pile of kindling with a built-in can of gas should come with fire protection and emergency exits that are only sufficient for when there is no actual fire is a question that has little to do with batteries.

 

[Popgun Pete]

So here's a thought maybe someone can shed some light on. If these lithium batteries are SO dangerous, why isn't it common place for houses to be igniting routinely because of them. They must be being used on more than just dive boats no? If it were that much of a risk, I would expect to see house fires galore being started by this.

The houses are going up, but not in large enough numbers (yet) as chargers are usually not left on for days or running overnight. Plus many chargers are doing the job because they are legitimately protected units, as are the cells, but there are plenty of unprotected cells with the most simplistic chargers supplied with flashlights from China. On the cardboard box it may say "digitally intelligent" charger, or some grand sounding description, but the charger inside may be anything but, and you can search the box and item for a brand name or serial number and will find absolutely nothing. For a seldom charged unit they may not give any trouble, but used intensively they may conk out with dramatic results.

 

[fmerkel]

Lipo and Li-on (most of them) all have the same voltage 4.2v/cell fully charged. Lipo tend to be 'packs', often soft packs, and have a charging wire with a possible balance tap wire coming off them. The charger can be separate. With that setup it's easy to put the battery in a fireproof container, if it will fit.

That doesn't work as well for Li-on cylinder batteries that are often charged in a charger holding 1>8 cells. Some cooling is desirable, even if passive. Putting them in a container like that would create another layer of problems.

 

[george_austin]

We don’t have to wait for the CG to issue new directives, recommendations and policy white papers regarding HAZMAT on commercial vessels with passengers.
Boat owners and captains could just throw the breakers to all 120V outlets and lock up the panels. (sic) or remove all the wiring to all outlets. Tough love.

 

[2airishuman]

So here's a thought maybe someone can shed some light on. If these lithium batteries are SO dangerous, why isn't it common place for houses to be igniting routinely because of them. They must be being used on more than just dive boats no? If it were that much of a risk, I would expect to see house fires galore being started by this.

Combination of reasons.

- There are a large share of battery anomalies (overheat/fire/"rapid self-disassembly") that are resolved without escalating to the point where they are reported as fires. There are, for example, quite a few reports of battery fires (etc) in the vaping community.
- As noted upthread, very few consumer products outside the SCUBA space use loose 18650 cells with separate chargers. Most consumer products use assembled packs that incorporate thermal protection. Most cheaper devices charge the batteries at modest rates. The major consumer devices -- phones, laptops, power tools -- are manufactured or sold at retail by well established corporations. The liability exposure helps make sure they build devices responsibly.
- Statistics lag reality by several years. Residential structure fire statistics are dominated by a handful of perennial bugaboos -- unattended cooking, cigarette smoking in bed, candles, malfunctioning heating appliances, electric wiring, arson. It will take a lot of battery fires to compete.

 

[djcheburashka]

I work in life safety. Specifically fire safety. Including fire prevention, detection, and extinguishing systems on ships and boats. I operate under regulations laid out by the International Maritime Organization, American Bureau of Shipping, and others.

Any vessel that is at serious risk from a consumer battery in a cabin space is not a safe boat. Period. You can try to justify it any way you please, but no major vessel operator prohibits the use of lithium or lithium ion batteries anywhere except in ammunition storage lockers.

A consumer level battery (barring anything extreme like a DPV) simply doesn't contain enough energy to damage a well constructed vessel in the time it takes the crew to respond to a fire. In an actual incident, it's no worse than any other small fire caused by an electrical issue, cigarette, or shorted non-lithium battery.

If you can't safely deal with a small fire on your boat, you aren't operating a safe boat. If you think you need to ban batteries from passenger cabins to keep people safe, you aren't doing enough to keep them safe in the first place.

This seems to me to plainly be correct.

One way of addressing fire safety is by eliminating all ignition sources. But eliminating lithium batteries from boats doesn't eliminate, or even reduce by much, the number of ignition sources. Chargers are a much bigger risk than the batteries, and that risk is present regardless of battery chemistry.

There are other ways to address fire safety. One is to eliminate fuel. On a liveaboard, that's things like the bedding, making sure they're fire retardant.

Another is, escape routes and firefighting equipment. As in, don't stuff 36 (or 24, or 12) people into a space that's so tight that if there's a fire, there's no place for them to go. Don't have both your escape routes lead to the same place, so if the fire is there, there's no place for the passengers to escape *to*. And don't have a secondary escape route so small and inconveniently placed, that it would take passengers who aren't panicking because of a fire an hour to get them all through it.