Tonka97's Five Scenarios for John Chatterton

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

If some SB members prefer attacking the messenger instead of dealing with historical accuracy, so be it! It is their God Given right.

My challenge to John Chatterton stands.

Maybe it is because I am watching reruns of That 70's Show, but I can almost here Tonka say,

"Good day! Good Day! I said good day! aahh aaahh aaahhh Good Day!!! Good DAY!!!!"


Really I think your post in reply highlights that you have very strong feelings against Chatterton that no one could mistake for any kind of love. I am not sure how calling someone a liar on a public forum and tossing down your glove and challenging them to a duel could be misunderstood as anything else. I think everybody on SB that has read your posts on SD understands that you think John is a liar and that Gary has exposed his as a lying bleepity bleep bleep.

No one misunderstands that you think he is a liar. We all get it and we aren't trying to change your mind.


As far as it being this a first,second, or thrid book for the author well that is a pretty good track record that an unknown author could end up selling tons of copies and make a living out of diving. He might have a few lessons to teach all of us.

As you challenge stands--so does my offer to hold a B-Q in his honor. I don't either one of us have a great chance of this coming to pass, but I think I might have a better shot of hosting the B-Q than John taking you up on your duel!

 

[Gombessa]

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure why having no prior blockbuster titles should be a ding against any author. But from Kurson's site, he is a JD from Harvard Law School and has published articles in Esquire, Chicago, Rolling Stone, and New York Times Magazine.

Even without Shadow Divers to Kurson's credit, I bet plenty of working authors would trade positions with him.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[Buoyant1]

Let's look at my post 37:

--snip--

Gary Gentile has exposed the hoax that IS Shadow Divers. I have stated that it is pretty good FICTION, and is an enjoyable read, and listen (in audio format)...I have both.

--snip--

Hmmm, I read Gary's book and don't see anything that constitutes such a "smoking gun" of making SD into a HOAX?!?! I think he dwelled upon his opinion of how the sub met it's demise a bit much...none of us, or them were there...both books offered their opinion, Gary spent far too much time trying to disprove something that will never be proven..SD offered it's opinion, and let it go.

Gary spent more time trying to "discredit the witnesses" than anything else..and when it came to the actual story, I could see both sides having truth to them, just from different eyes....Seems like he had something against JC and RK...his prerogative.

I didn't learn anything new...from Gary's book..and would have respected his tale more if it were just his side of the story, and spent less time trying to create a "smoking gun"

I love Gary's books, but was puzzled at that one....

 

[rawls]

If John Chatterton would care to join in with SB discussions, I would take the opportunity to challenge the veracity of 5 key scenarios portrayed in Shadow Divers. There are many more than 5, but that would be a reasonable challenge/response thread.

The challenges would come directly from Gary Gentile's Shadow Divers Exposed.

Tonka...Once again you are talking out of your *ss.
I listed a few loads of BS from Gentile's book below that I wrote in another thread. And the ones I mention below don't even scratch the surface of Gentile's "Why not me" book...


I have read both books. I respect Mr Gentile's diving experiences, but I have no respect for Shadow Divers Exposed. I will list a few, but nowhere near all of the examples that cause me to feel this way.

#1 Mr. Gentile states in the beginning that without a doubt an American vessel depth charged and sunk the U-869. His proof is mere speculation. To give him credit, I don't think anyone will ever know for certain whether it was depth charged or whether it was a torpedo. It could be one or the other. I have read several things Chatterton has said about it and I can't recall him ever saying it was definitively the 869's own torpedo. He has said he felt the evidence lead to his speculation. Mr Gentile sites proof and he has no definitive proof at all.

#2 He states that John Moyer (I believe it was Moyer) videotaped the resuscitation efforts of Chris Rouse. He states that in the video...the camera was concealed...Chatterton didn't say one word to the rescue diver once he boarded the boat. I have dived with John on several occations and if anyone else has they will know that John is constitutionally incapable of not talking. John loves to talk. Knowing this first hand it is very hard to believe John said nothing with a rescue diver standing right next to him. Thing is, regarding John loving to talk, it is very seldomly anything about himself or his accomplishments. Even when he does mention something he has done he always downplays it. If Moyer did videotape the resuscitation efforts on a dying or deceased man then that shows a complete lack of respect for Chris Rouse.

#3 During his writing about the sinking of the U-869 Mr. Gentile talks about his own research into the discovery and has the balls to say he had figured out it was the U-869.

#4 I had alot of trouble in the part of the book where he talks about discrepancies in many of the things related to Chatterton's and Kohler's accomplishments as being total fabrications. His charges seemed plausible since he cited many people to back up his claim, then I realized I didn't recall any quotes of verifications regarding Gentile's "facts" from these people. Here's the kicker related to this. It's the part about his "interview techniques" toward the end of the book...before the appendicies. Then I found relief when I read about his way of getting the "truth" out of people who were diving with John and Richie. Those who remembered it another way other than his. Mr Gentile remembers the actual truth when many times he wasn't even present on these dives, and again, I can't recall one person who he quoted that backed up his claims. If anyone reads anything in that book I encourage them to read about Mr Gentile's "interview techniques"....It tells the whole story that will make clear how Mr Gentile's book totally lacks credibility.

#5 Mr. Gentile includes the term "Deep Sea Defectives" regarding the History Channel episodes. I must admit I think it is pretty funny, but also pretty adolescent by calling people names. Just another example of his being pissed off about "why them and not me."

#6 If he mentioned "my faithful readers" one more time I think I would have puked.

I don't believe for a minute that Kurson did not take some creative license with Shadow Divers, but what book hasn't. I doubt there is one single non-fiction book ever written that hasn't taken some creative licensure in its writing. It doesn't make them fiction as Mr. Gentile states Shadow Divers is. If you want to read a great fiction...Reread Shadow Divers Exposed.

 

[The Chairman]

Don't feed (or entertain) the trolls!
They live for this kind of sick controversy!
​

You don't see Gary here challenging John out in the open for a reason!

 

[Buoyant1]

Don't feed (or entertain) the trolls!
They live for this kind of sick controversy!
​

You don't see Gary here challenging John out in the open for a reason!

Yeah..but it beats arguing about whether to use a snorkel or put your mask on your forehead!

 

[tonka97]

Maybe it is because I am watching reruns of That 70's Show, but I can almost here Tonka say,

"Good day! Good Day! I said good day! aahh aaahh aaahhh Good Day!!! Good DAY!!!!"


Really I think your post in reply highlights that you have very strong feelings against Chatterton that no one could mistake for any kind of love. I am not sure how calling someone a liar on a public forum and tossing down your glove and challenging them to a duel could be misunderstood as anything else. I think everybody on SB that has read your posts on SD understands that you think John is a liar and that Gary has exposed his as a lying bleepity bleep bleep.

No one misunderstands that you think he is a liar. We all get it and we aren't trying to change your mind.


As far as it being this a first,second, or thrid book for the author well that is a pretty good track record that an unknown author could end up selling tons of copies and make a living out of diving. He might have a few lessons to teach all of us.

As you challenge stands--so does my offer to hold a B-Q in his honor. I don't either one of us have a great chance of this coming to pass, but I think I might have a better shot of hosting the B-Q than John taking you up on your duel!

Leah,

I respect your thoughtful posts, but have you read "Shadow Divers Exposed"? If you haven't, I can understand your defensiveness, but you would be unable to understand the rationale for my posts.

I neither LIKE or DISLIKE John Chatterton. This is absurd.

Contending that I "hate" Chatterton is merely an ad hominem attack intended to divert attention away from the exposure of multiple fabrications contained in Kurson, Chatterton, and Kohler's Shadow Divers.

As Shadow Divers moves on to become a high budget movie, the purported fabrications will take on new life and history will continue to be rewritten.

Caveat emptor

My challenge to John Chatterton remains unanswered. 5 simple questions contained in Gentile's Scuba Divers Exposed, respectfully posed for Chatterton's comments.

If I were Chatterton, I would be EAGER to explain Gentile's published challenges to the veracity of the book that propelled me into stardom. A book that I had personally authenticated.

I would demand it!



From Amazon:
Amazon.com: Shadow Divers Exposed: the Real Saga of the U-869: Books: Gary Gentile

"... Shadow Divers Exposed works on a multitude of levels. It presents the actual circumstances that surrounded the loss of the U-869. It puts the discovery of the U-869 into perspective with other U-boats that have been found in American waters. It provides an overview of the U-boat war through accounts of other U-boat losses. And it corrects some of the gross errors, wild exaggerations, and deliberate distortions that filled the pages of Shadow Divers. The author interviewed a number of witnesses whose testimony contradicted the theatrical plot and boastful embellishments that formed the essential ingredients of Shadow Divers. Some of these witnesses actually performed the deeds for which the chosen protagonists of Shadow Divers were given credit. These witnesses disputed many of the fictitious elements that ran rampant through the pages of Shadow Divers. By means of forensic analyses of shipwreck collapse, torpedo mechanics, and U-boat survivors' accounts, the present volume explains why the U-869 could not have been sunk by a circular run of its own torpedo - as Shadow Divers had its uninformed readers believe."

 

[tonka97]

Tonka...Once again you are talking out of your *ss.
I listed a few loads of BS from Gentile's book below that I wrote in another thread. And the ones I mention below don't even scratch the surface of Gentile's "Why not me" book...


I have read both books. I respect Mr Gentile's diving experiences, but I have no respect for Shadow Divers Exposed. I will list a few, but nowhere near all of the examples that cause me to feel this way.

#1 Mr. Gentile states in the beginning that without a doubt an American vessel depth charged and sunk the U-869. His proof is mere speculation. To give him credit, I don't think anyone will ever know for certain whether it was depth charged or whether it was a torpedo. It could be one or the other. I have read several things Chatterton has said about it and I can't recall him ever saying it was definitively the 869's own torpedo. He has said he felt the evidence lead to his speculation. Mr Gentile sites proof and he has no definitive proof at all.

#2 He states that John Moyer (I believe it was Moyer) videotaped the resuscitation efforts of Chris Rouse. He states that in the video...the camera was concealed...Chatterton didn't say one word to the rescue diver once he boarded the boat. I have dived with John on several occations and if anyone else has they will know that John is constitutionally incapable of not talking. John loves to talk. Knowing this first hand it is very hard to believe John said nothing with a rescue diver standing right next to him. Thing is, regarding John loving to talk, it is very seldomly anything about himself or his accomplishments. Even when he does mention something he has done he always downplays it. If Moyer did videotape the resuscitation efforts on a dying or deceased man then that shows a complete lack of respect for Chris Rouse.

#3 During his writing about the sinking of the U-869 Mr. Gentile talks about his own research into the discovery and has the balls to say he had figured out it was the U-869.

#4 I had alot of trouble in the part of the book where he talks about discrepancies in many of the things related to Chatterton's and Kohler's accomplishments as being total fabrications. His charges seemed plausible since he cited many people to back up his claim, then I realized I didn't recall any quotes of verifications regarding Gentile's "facts" from these people. Here's the kicker related to this. It's the part about his "interview techniques" toward the end of the book...before the appendicies. Then I found relief when I read about his way of getting the "truth" out of people who were diving with John and Richie. Those who remembered it another way other than his. Mr Gentile remembers the actual truth when many times he wasn't even present on these dives, and again, I can't recall one person who he quoted that backed up his claims. If anyone reads anything in that book I encourage them to read about Mr Gentile's "interview techniques"....It tells the whole story that will make clear how Mr Gentile's book totally lacks credibility.

#5 Mr. Gentile includes the term "Deep Sea Defectives" regarding the History Channel episodes. I must admit I think it is pretty funny, but also pretty adolescent by calling people names. Just another example of his being pissed off about "why them and not me."

#6 If he mentioned "my faithful readers" one more time I think I would have puked.

I don't believe for a minute that Kurson did not take some creative license with Shadow Divers, but what book hasn't. I doubt there is one single non-fiction book ever written that hasn't taken some creative licensure in its writing. It doesn't make them fiction as Mr. Gentile states Shadow Divers is. If you want to read a great fiction...Reread Shadow Divers Exposed.

Thank you for posting content.

:thumbs-up

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

Leah,

I respect your thoughtful posts, but have you read "Shadow Divers Exposed"? If you haven't, I can understand your defensiveness, but you would be unable to understand the rationale for my posts.

I neither LIKE or DISLIKE John Chatterton. This is absurd.

Contending that I "hate" Chatterton is merely an ad hominem attack intended to divert attention away from the exposure of multiple fabrications contained in Kurson, Chatterton, and Kohler's Shadow Divers.[/I]

Tonka, you are correct, I haven't read either book. What I have read is a whole host of posts from you with a very angry tone in regards to SD. I posted in response to someone saying John was aloof and that my friend had a nice exchange with him and that we were both a bit shocked. Other post that they have met John and he seems like a straight up guy to them. It really seemed to upset you that we were talking about John being a nice guy.

For some reason when the SD bunch or GG is mentioned you get very keyed up. I don't know why you have such strong feelings, but you do and it is clear to all. If anyone attempts to have a pleasant conversation about either of these books you get very worked up. I have to wonder what is really driving those feelings in you? We often express displeasure about some unrelated thing when we are struggling with something in our own lives. It is my guess that for you talking about JC, RK, and GG is a way for you to express some of your own personal frustrations without really looking into the issue in your own life that is really bothering you.

Tonka, I don’t think I am the only one picking up on this. I have read a lot of your posts regarding SD and SDE and the replies that people have given to you. From the limited amount that I know about the responders, it seems you have a board variety of folks responding to you that are any where from conservative to liberal and religious to non religious.

I don’t know if it is your job, your health, your relationships, your accomplishments or what, but I get the underlying feeling that something is going on with you that you are either not satisfied with or feel is out of your control. We all have times in lives where things aren’t going as we would hope. Life never turns out the way any of us would hope.

I would encourage you as well as anyone who reads this thread to take a good hard look at their life and to examine things that might be frustrating to them. And then make sure you are either dealing with what can be dealt with or accepting what can’t be changed and then forging ahead with life.

Personally, my life isn’t at all how I thought it would turn out. It is really frustrating at times, especially when you see others having, doing or accomplishing things that you would like to do that are good things. It is even more frustrating when those same folks take for granted what they have and are the stewards that we think they should be of such blessings. Then again, if I could read everyone’s mind there is probably someone who looks at me the same way with the same jaded eyes.

Not training to flame you or anyone else. I am trying to be straight up with as I care about you. I know you and many others will probably see this post in an entirely different light, but I hope you will really take some time to think about what I have said.

Sincerely,
Leah

 

[tonka97]

I don’t know if it is your job, your health, your relationships, your accomplishments or what, but I get the underlying feeling that something is going on with you that you are either not satisfied with or feel is out of your control. We all have times in lives where things aren’t going as we would hope. Life never turns out the way any of us would hope.

I would encourage you as well as anyone who reads this thread to take a good hard look at their life and to examine things that might be frustrating to them. And then make sure you are either dealing with what can be dealt with or accepting what can’t be changed and then forging ahead with life.

Leah,

Perceived insights into my personal life would be better communicated via PM.

If you would care to read the book(s) discussed on this thread it would go a long way in understanding my posts.

It is amazing that "hate" is your interpretation of my posts. You do have company with NetDoc and others.

When challenged to explain how 'hate' permeates my posts, it appears that posters come up empty.

It reminds me of former President Clinton's sexual harassments and perjuries. If you disapproved of his felonious behavior, you immediately were branded a "Clinton Hater", and your opinion somehow discredited. (ad hominen argument)

I encourage SB members to thoughtfully read Shadow Divers, then Shadow Divers Exposed and make up their own minds before drinking the SD kool-aid. Leave any hatred at the door, and enjoy THINKING.