Tips on tips

[RJP]

This is certainly off topic but Cappyjon has just made the point I've tried to make about liveaboards many times. The number of guests does a make a difference. There is a huge difference between being on a boat with 10 or 12 guests and one with 30 guests. Thanks for the honesty from an actual boat captain.

To that same point, I tend to OVERTIP if the boat is light, for two reasons:

1.) The service tends to be a bit better/more personalized with fewer passengers on board, so I benefit from the lighter load

2.) It's not the crew's fault that the boat's not full that week, and I would feel badly knowing they automatically took a 50% pay cut when their workload is essentially unchanged.

 

[Gtoph]

To that same point, I tend to OVERTIP if the boat is light, for two reasons:

1.) The service tends to be a bit better/more personalized with fewer passengers on board, so I benefit from the lighter load

2.) It's not the crew's fault that the boat's not full that week, and I would feel badly knowing they automatically took a 50% pay cut when their workload is essentially unchanged.

Not arguing or anything, everyone is free to do whatever they like. But someone shouldn't feel obligated to tip more just because there are few guests on the boat.

 

[RJP]

Not arguing or anything, everyone is free to do whatever they like. But someone shouldn't feel obligated to tip more just because there are few guests on the boat.

I hear what you're saying, but maybe "obligated" is the wrong word.

All I can tell you is there's something inside me that compels me to overtip in certain situations. Like when you sit at a table in a busy restaurant during prime dinner time on a Friday night for 1/2hr longer than usual dilly-dallying over coffee with friends. Sure, I didn't get much more service from the waitress but I did cost her a turnover on that table. Her opportunity cost on my cup of coffee may have been $50! Not saying I'm doubling my tip, but I'm probably gonna help her out by leaving 25-30% instead of 20%. Call it respect. Call it empathy. Hell, call it sympathy if you like.

Recently stopped at my favorite NYC restaurant (Bobby Flay's Mesa Grille) for dinner after taking my wife, her sister and our combined four kids to a play on a Saturday. We were lucky to get a table, but the kids were all loaded up on popcorn and crackerjack so they weren't very hungry. The three adults got dinner and wine and the kids all got french fries and sodas. The waitress was great - in fact she suggested the french fries for the kids. I think our bill may have been just under $200. I asked the manager how much a typical dinner check would be on a Saturday night for 6-7 people - $400 or so apparently.

When I tipped $80 on a $200 check the waitress stopped me and said "Sir, there must be a mistake. This is too much. I can't accept this." I simply told her that I knew she didn't take a job at the Mesa Grille to earn tips on french fries and Cokes. She almost cried.

 

[ncchuck]

Tipping by Americans is just crazy. I'd rather pay a higher price and know the employees are paid a wage consistant with the work performed in their country. Tipping someone 15% (on a liveaboard) where the prevailing wage is $2.00 a day for most people is just nutty. It is likely the crew already makes more than the average person in that country anyway. This tip may amount to hundreds of dollars and that could easily be a month's wages or more. If I tip the same thing in the US or some other wealthy country, it may be a drop in the bucket. The process is flawed. I don't tip airline crews or home depot personnel even though they may provide and exceptional level of service. They just to their job and get paid properly for it. Tipping on liveaboards is just crazy. Most of the cost of the trip is for fuel. The crew has nothing to do with the fuel. They provide service related to food, lodging and diving but get tips based on the entire cost of the trip.

Yes, I'll continue to tip but I just consider the normal tip part of the price and then provide a real tip based on level of service above what is considered part of the job.

I've been on many liveaboards in both the Atlantic and Pacific and the average tip from all guests in every situation has been about $200.

In a world where travel is so readily available, what should a person do? In some countries tipping is not expected and could even be considered an insult. Should people from that country be expected to follow their own customs or those of the country they visit? Should people from America or other countries that find tipping acceptable, tip in countries where it's not the norm?

 

[PvtStash]

*gulp*


damn... I'm really happy there's people out there with the means for such largesse (over-tipping, whathaveyou)... but I'm a bluecollar guy... I make about 25k/yr... $200 is significant for me... an now I'm hearin' that I'm gonna be expected to cough up another $200 for a liveaboard trip? I don' suppose my Fee entitles me to any service? I don' any hand-holding, low-maintainence guest... Thats! what we need! some kinda survey/questionaire I can fill out ahead of time for them letting them know to not shower any extraordinate attention on me cus' I don' need it and cant afford to Pay for it.

I'll save an extra $100 but not $200...

 

[cappyjon431]

*gulp*


damn... I'm really happy there's people out there with the means for such largesse (over-tipping, whathaveyou)... but I'm a bluecollar guy... I make about 25k/yr... $200 is significant for me... an now I'm hearin' that I'm gonna be expected to cough up another $200 for a liveaboard trip? I don' suppose my Fee entitles me to any service? I don' any hand-holding, low-maintainence guest... Thats! what we need! some kinda survey/questionaire I can fill out ahead of time for them letting them know to not shower any extraordinate attention on me cus' I don' need it and cant afford to Pay for it.

I'll save an extra $100 but not $200...

$200 for a $2000 cruise is not overtipping. Being a blue collar guy perhaps you should consider going on a blue collar liveaboard, with lower cruise fares. As earlier posters have noted, salaries on liveaboards are notoriously low and liveaboard crews are dependent on tips to make what most would consider minimum wage.

You might not want or need "extraordinate attention" but dollars to donuts you would be peeved if you sense other guests received better service than you did. It might also be pretty awkward for the crew--I can imagine them saying "oh, that's just John Doe, he doesn't want any service, so let's just pay attention to the other guests and not to him." Not likely to happen, chances are you would get the same level of service as those who tipped 10-15%. Is that fair?

A $100 tip split among ten crew members for a week comes out to $10 for each of them to carry our luggage, cook your meals, set up and bus your tables, clean your cabins, take out your trash, wash your dishes, launder your towels, fill your tanks, brief you on your dive sites, answer your questions, watch out for your safety both onboard and in the water. $10 for doing all that?

 

[darkstar]

...

A $100 tip split among ten crew members for a week comes out to $10 for each of them to carry our luggage, cook your meals, set up and bus your tables, clean your cabins, take out your trash, wash your dishes, launder your towels, fill your tanks, brief you on your dive sites, answer your questions, watch out for your safety both onboard and in the water. $10 for doing all that?

Um, didn't I just pay $2,000 - $3,000 for that? Who got all of that money? Are you saying that for $2 -$3K, all I get is bunk and three hots? Sounds pretty steep to me. Are you saying the charter op is ripping me off and then expecting me to pay the crew's wages?

And since there were probably 19 other guests on that boat, then the poor hard done-by crew guy actually would get $200. Tax free, most of the time.

I wonder how much the woman who cleaned your hotel room made last week. What about the guy who loaded your luggage on the airplane. Oh, and the guy who cleaned your airplane seat after you spilled sesame snacks all over it. I should remember to tip the garbage man. He always puts the top back on my garbage can.

I was on a charter in Belize a little while ago, where I tipped 10% because I was told that was the custom and because I got good service. There were two British guys who had done mostly Red Sea charters and were kind of shocked by that. I think they tipped $100. And there were a bunch of folks from South America. I don't think it was a good tipping week for the crew. And since we all got the same service, why did I have to pay more.

Tipping is a silly system and that's why it's not used in MANY parts of the world. A better, fairer system is to pay a fair wage. And strangely, the places that do just that, like Australia, seem to charge about the same for a 7 day charter.

But until tipping is not the custom, I'll continue to tip 10% in the places where tipping is expected and much less or nothing in the places where sanity prevails.

 

[cappyjon431]

Um, didn't I just pay $2,000 - $3,000 for that? Who got all of that money? Are you saying that for $2 -$3K, all I get is bunk and three hots? Sounds pretty steep to me. Are you saying the charter op is ripping me off and then expecting me to pay the crew's wages?

And since there were probably 19 other guests on that boat, then the poor hard done-by crew guy actually would get $200. Tax free, most of the time.

I wonder how much the woman who cleaned your hotel room made last week. What about the guy who loaded your luggage on the airplane. Oh, and the guy who cleaned your airplane seat after you spilled sesame snacks all over it. I should remember to tip the garbage man. He always puts the top back on my garbage can.

I was on a charter in Belize a little while ago, where I tipped 10% because I was told that was the custom and because I got good service. There were two British guys who had done mostly Red Sea charters and were kind of shocked by that. I think they tipped $100. And there were a bunch of folks from South America. I don't think it was a good tipping week for the crew. And since we all got the same service, why did I have to pay more.

Tipping is a silly system and that's why it's not used in MANY parts of the world. A better, fairer system is to pay a fair wage. And strangely, the places that do just that, like Australia, seem to charge about the same for a 7 day charter.

But until tipping is not the custom, I'll continue to tip 10% in the places where tipping is expected and much less or nothing in the places where sanity prevails.

For $2-$3K you get your transportation (fuel costs, port costs & a licensed captain), meals (3 meals a dayx6=18+meals w/snacks, drinks, etc.), accomodations, and 25-28 dives in a week--still a relatively good deal for a dive vacation.

The $200 your hypothetical crew would have made with 20 guests on the boat would pocket about $300 each for the week. I'm not certain, but I think that still puts them below poverty level and certainly below minimum wage for the number of hours that they work to assure your enjoyment of the cruise.

"I wonder how much the woman who cleaned your hotel room made last week. What about the guy who loaded your luggage on the airplane. Oh, and the guy who cleaned your airplane seat after you spilled sesame snacks all over it. I should remember to tip the garbage man. He always puts the top back on my garbage can."

Do you live, eat, and dive with these folks for an entire week? Do you know them by name? Do they know yours? The crew does, they develop a relationship with their guests because they want to make sure you have a great trip.

Tipping might be a silly system (and in a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary), but it is the only system that exists to insure quality. When I captained a liveaboard many guests would ask me why the tip just was not built into the price of the cruise. My response was (and still is) that it insures good service. If the crews got a steady paycheck each week for a set amount of money, there would be little incentive to work their a$$'s off to provide an awesome experience for the guests. Remember, most of these guys/gals are 18-25 years old and would probably sit in their cabins and watch videos or dive on their own, ignoring responsibilities. The thought of getting crappy tips motivates them to do a great job.

I worked on a liveaboard for many years, and the one thing that always struck me was when I read the customer "report cards" was that it was customer service that made our cruises successful. Sure the boat was nice, the food was good, the diving was great, but it was primarily the crew's customer service which contributed to over 50% of our guests being repeat customers. If customer service is great, the crews deserve 10-15%.

 

[ncchuck]

I'm afraid we are still not comparing apples and apples here. The crew on a liveaboard may not make a lot of money but they typically do okay. The have all their meals and a place to sleep provided. It's not the ritz but it's a living. Most DM's, instructors and even boat captains do it for the fun and adventure. They never had any intention of getting rich. I know, I tried it for a short while. I didn't care if they paid me or gave me any tips, it was a blast.

Everyone should know that some boats such as the one CappyJon ran, pay different during maintenance periods. The working crew gets minimum wage during that period and they work even harder than they do at sea when guests are aboard.

Frankly, $300 a week (assuming typical tips) with absolutely no expenses isn't all that bad. I know you have time off that you have to pay for but that's life and it's one these people chose. They should get paid by their employer and not the divers. Can you imagine if we had to tip 10% for our car salesperson or realtor or mechanic or lawyer or accountant or all the rest of the working people in the world. All of these people work really hard to provide outstandting service to me so I'll return again. They just have a different mind set created by being paid a fair wage. I contend it works a lot better than the tip system.

I have yet another story to indicate how out of control this situation might be. I was the manager at a dive resort in Micronesia and the staff knew exactly what nationalities tipped and which didn't. I tried my darnest to lead by example but they did treat different people differently. That's not what the guests from these various countries deserved. The culture in Micronesia and ever Honduras is such that many people in the so called service industry treat people based on expected tips. What a crappy way of doing things. Yes us American's are helping create this crazy situation.

 

[cappyjon431]

I'm afraid we are still not comparing apples and apples here. The crew on a liveaboard may not make a lot of money but they typically do okay. The have all their meals and a place to sleep provided. It's not the ritz but it's a living. Most DM's, instructors and even boat captains do it for the fun and adventure. They never had any intention of getting rich. I know, I tried it for a short while. I didn't care if they paid me or gave me any tips, it was a blast.

Everyone should know that some boats such as the one CappyJon ran, pay different during maintenance periods. The working crew gets minimum wage during that period and they work even harder than they do at sea when guests are aboard.

Frankly, $300 a week (assuming typical tips) with absolutely no expenses isn't all that bad. I know you have time off that you have to pay for but that's life and it's one these people chose. They should get paid by their employer and not the divers. Can you imagine if we had to tip 10% for our car salesperson or realtor or mechanic or lawyer or accountant or all the rest of the working people in the world. All of these people work really hard to provide outstandting service to me so I'll return again. They just have a different mind set created by being paid a fair wage. I contend it works a lot better than the tip system.

I have yet another story to indicate how out of control this situation might be. I was the manager at a dive resort in Micronesia and the staff knew exactly what nationalities tipped and which didn't. I tried my darnest to lead by example but they did treat different people differently. That's not what the guests from these various countries deserved. The culture in Micronesia and ever Honduras is such that many people in the so called service industry treat people based on expected tips. What a crappy way of doing things. Yes us American's are helping create this crazy situation.

NCChuck you make some very valid points. Most liveaboard crew members do work the jobs for a sense of fun and adventure, but they also must earn enough to support them for the 12-16 weeks a year when they are scheduled off of the rotation. Our instructors/DMs worked nine weeks on, three weeks off, captains & mates worked eight weeks on, four weeks off. During that three week period they need to pay for housing (hotel, hostel, etc.,), food, and frequently airfare to their homes (parents, girlfriends, etc.). There is no money coming in for that three-four week period. If tipping is lousy, it could put crew members in a very undesirable position, not having enough money to support them for their time off ship.

Sure you get paid for maintenance weeks (shipyard/USCG inspection), it is hard work, it is low pay, but you do get paid minimum wage (or a little higher, depending on your position).

The assumption that $300/week with virtually no expenses is just that-an assumption. I paid child support for the entire time I worked on the boat. Many crew members have student loans, credit card bills, mortgages and other responsibilities. Sure they are given room and board, but most crewmembers have other financial obligations.

As I said previously, in a perfect world the dive industry would respect dive professionals and pay them a living wage. The truth is that the economics of the liveaboard industry make crew members dependent on tips. It would be great if crew members could get a decent paycheck each week and not depend on tipping, but that is NOT the current situation, that is not reality. Don't punish the folks who wait on you hand and foot because you do not approve of the system. Perhaps your displeasure at the system is better directed toward the liveaboard companies. If you are that unhappy with the system, don't go on a liveaboard. I just think it is unfair to penalize those who work so hard to insure that guests have a great (and safe) time, when the problem is with the liveaboard company.

Finally, I am still curious how you could encourage excellent service from crew members if they just received straight salary? What would be the motivation for a crewmember? I can see a lot of "I'm getting paid anyway, why should I lug his 100 pound dive bag" etc. Car salespeople were mentioned in the above post. Why do you think car salesmen are paid on commision? If they got a straight salary, there would be no motivation to sell.