Tips for “Bubblers” - fatigue, headaches and recovery

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Regarding the vibration: the study targeted the question if vibration before (not after) diving can reduce the bubble load. Bubble load is not identical with the incidence of DCS, even though often even professional societies are good at blurring the lines between both, alas it seems for PR purposes in some cases. Bubble load is something that can reliably be measured in experiments, as bubble are present in nearly every case. DCS is very rare, so often not seen even once in studies. But it is important to stress that nothing proves that a lower bubble load guarantees no DCS.

And as with so much in diving, statistical basis for this study is heartbreaking. 14 divers, 2 dives each. But anyhow. The reasoning behind it was that bubbles very probably do not manage to come into existence in free solution in divers, as supersaturation is not high enough. Prevailing ideas are that they are born ("nucleated") either by mechanically making and breaking contact of solid surfaces (remember the cracking you can make with your knuckles...). This is called "tribonucleation". Or that they are born at surfaces, and preferably at places where there are narrow cracks within which the baby bubbles can grow, and then some time can come free and start their journey through the bloodstream. This is called "heterogeneous nucleation". A consequence of this second idea is that we all should have waiting baby bubbles in our body all the time. They may just become more problematic when given the opportunity to prosper by saturation after diving. So there is the idea: shake the diver before the dive --> babies get shaken out of the cradle and perish --> less baby bubbles present during and after the dive, so less risk. Nothing of this is proven of course, not even the mechanism of bubble production, and maybe not even that the bubbles are the real problem. Still, here it is:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c653/86b0cedd0b375358d6872c3dcabb9c093756.pdf

This study seems to really indicate less bubbles after pre-dive shaking. Make of it what you want. I personally will not shake before diving, and I have no hesitations to board a shaking car after diving.

And regarding the OP, honestly, I would not consider bubbles or DCS the culprit. I would guess, as many others have stated, that you over time will much improve your experience by improving your breathing. Some of what you describe sounds like CO2 build up more than anything else. DCS is very rare, do not let all the hype about it take away your joy!
 
I'm not saying it isn't real. I'm suggesting that it isn't just a dehydration issue.

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply you were. If there is something else at play I’m all ears. It started 4 years ago in Coz, but wasn’t too bad. I was wearing a new hooded vest that was tight around the neck so thought that might have been it. The next trip I thought I might be skip breathing so I made sure to try and clear CO2 consciously. I’ve swapped my mouthpiece to a more comfortable one. For a while my camera rig was negative and that was causing tension in my neck from holding it in position. Some extra arm floats fixed that and have helped, but not entirely. The only preventative action I’ve found is to drink a load of water before the dive. I think it is a tension headache as it feels muscular and at the base of my skull.

Thanks
Rick
 
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply you were. If there is something else at play I’m all ears. It started 4 years ago in Coz, but wasn’t too bad. I was wearing a new hooded vest that was tight around the neck so thought that might have been it. The next trip I thought I might be skip breathing so I made sure to try and clear CO2 consciously. I’ve swapped my mouthpiece to a more comfortable one. For a while my camera rig was negative and that was causing tension in my neck from holding it in position. Some extra arm floats fixed that and have helped, but not entirely. The only preventative action I’ve found is to drink a load of water before the dive. I think it is a tension headache as it feels muscular and at the base of my skull.

Thanks
Rick

Does your neck ever bother you on shore?
And/or do you ever get these type of tension headaches during non-diving life?

Do you change your body and/or head position once you reach the safety stop?
 
Regarding the vibration: the study targeted the question if vibration before (not after) diving can reduce the bubble load. Bubble load is not identical with the incidence of DCS, even though often even professional societies are good at blurring the lines between both, alas it seems for PR purposes in some cases. Bubble load is something that can reliably be measured in experiments, as bubble are present in nearly every case. DCS is very rare, so often not seen even once in studies. But it is important to stress that nothing proves that a lower bubble load guarantees no DCS.

And as with so much in diving, statistical basis for this study is heartbreaking. 14 divers, 2 dives each. But anyhow. The reasoning behind it was that bubbles very probably do not manage to come into existence in free solution in divers, as supersaturation is not high enough. Prevailing ideas are that they are born ("nucleated") either by mechanically making and breaking contact of solid surfaces (remember the cracking you can make with your knuckles...). This is called "tribonucleation". Or that they are born at surfaces, and preferably at places where there are narrow cracks within which the baby bubbles can grow, and then some time can come free and start their journey through the bloodstream. This is called "heterogeneous nucleation". A consequence of this second idea is that we all should have waiting baby bubbles in our body all the time. They may just become more problematic when given the opportunity to prosper by saturation after diving. So there is the idea: shake the diver before the dive --> babies get shaken out of the cradle and perish --> less baby bubbles present during and after the dive, so less risk. Nothing of this is proven of course, not even the mechanism of bubble production, and maybe not even that the bubbles are the real problem. Still, here it is:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c653/86b0cedd0b375358d6872c3dcabb9c093756.pdf

This study seems to really indicate less bubbles after pre-dive shaking. Make of it what you want. I personally will not shake before diving, and I have no hesitations to board a shaking car after diving.

And regarding the OP, honestly, I would not consider bubbles or DCS the culprit. I would guess, as many others have stated, that you over time will much improve your experience by improving your breathing. Some of what you describe sounds like CO2 build up more than anything else. DCS is very rare, do not let all the hype about it take away your joy!
There's an interesting parallel in botany. Several stresses (drought, freezing) can create bubbles in xylem cells that transport water. Because xylem is under tension, this leads to cavitation and a potentially permanent vapor lock. A strategy some trees use is to allow cavitation in one cell. The resulting "explosion" shakes the cells around it, breaking up larger bubbles and hypothetically reducing the risk of more cavitation events.
 
1. Slow down the ascent. Even a midpoint stop and an extended safety may not be enough for us.
It is done before the dive.

@KenGordon somehow the quotes are mixed up in your post, but are you saying there was a study showing that a vibrating bed before a dive helps prevent DCI?[/QUOTE]
Yes. I saw a presentation about this at Eurotec. I think the theory is to do with small particles on the inside surface of blood vessels which act as seeds for bubbles.
 
@KenGordon somehow the quotes are mixed up in your post, but are you saying there was a study showing that a vibrating bed before a dive helps prevent DCI?


That's good enough for me! I'm going to send an immediate and urgent message to my next Liveaboard charter company to request a Vibrating Bed. I bet I'll get real special treatment when I show up aboard. :)
 
If I don’t have water before a dive and am dehydrated, then like clockwork when I hit the deck I get a raging headache. At that point I need to drink a bottle of water and wait a half hour, usually under a towel before I feel functional again. On the bad days, I can feel the thumping headache as I’m at or coming up from the safety stop. I don’t know if it is because I don’t notice it before then or something else but it is real.

Rick


Hi Rick. You live through these so I hate to second guess you but I am with Chilly in that I can not imagine that lack of extra hydration is the primary cause of the headaches and “thumping” does not sound muscular.

With the trigger ascents, any chance this is some type of reverse block?
 
Hi Rick. You live through these so I hate to second guess you but I am with Chilly in that I can not imagine that lack of extra hydration is the primary cause of the headaches and “thumping” does not sound muscular.

With the trigger ascents, any chance this is some type of reverse block?

I'd initially wondered about that too but Rick says it's the back of his head (as I understood him to say). But then the towel over the face and head for 30 minutes? There's something more . . .
 
I'd initially wondered about that too but Rick says it's the back of his head (as I understood him to say). But then the towel over the face and head for 30 minutes? There's something more . . .
Problems with the sphenoid sinuses, located behind the eyes, has been know to cause referred pain in the neck.

276400D1-9F74-4A32-8DE7-69E33B54F970.jpeg
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom