Tina Watson Death - The Full Story

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ClownfishSydney,

A lot of your statement deals with timing from dive computers. Did you make sure they were sync'd accurately with each other before comparing diving profiles? If you did, I just missed it in the large statement (which I read twice).

If not, then it's unreasonable to compare them to each other for the time periods being compared.

BTW, again, I appreciate you bringing this topic, evidence, analysis, and your opinions to this forum. I don't think I've ever had an expert witness in a court case provide detailed case evidence. Much appreciated.
 
Roger, There are pages and pages of discussion on this topic addressing your hypothesis, and many others. Do a search here on SB, or I can get you a link. The fact is, two separate courts found Watson not guilty of murder. The Alabama court acquitted him. It is a fact that he is not guilty of murder.

Most of us who who teach regularly and witness the mistakes that inexperienced divers make and also witness some diver's false bravado, can clearly see that this was a terrible accident that was mishandled by the police and sensationalized by the press.

Just because you or I would have reacted differently doesn't mean that an innocent man couldn't have reacted poorly and cowardly and completely failed to save his new bride. Panic isn't logical. People do ridiculous things when they panic. Gabe and Tina panicked.

Michael, thank you for getting caught up, those of us who have followed the case for years and discussed it ad nauseum. The inside view of the court room was enlightening. One thing that you never mentioned was your experience diving at the quarry?? Do tell!
 
Roger

Gabe probably did not panic big time till after the mask flood. In any case, there is a known survival instinct, flight or fight. In this case he did the flight.

If you are diving with people who ascend 15 metres (50 feet) in a minute, in a strong current, and stop at five metres for perhaps 15 or so seconds, before continuing to the surface, then there is something wrong with the way these people dive. Gabe's ascent rates as he went through the 40 foot level was 1.5 to 2 times the recommended safe ascent rate, at the 20 foot level it was 2-3 times the rate. At some time he ascended at 3-4 times the rate. Remember he was aiming at divers he saw on the descent line with the aim of trying to get them to help.

You may pass out in a minute, but to die you must have air cut off for longer. Remember, Tina's air was on when found, so the would have had to wait for at least two minutes before turning it back on. Therefore, the statements I have made are accurate.

As to the dive computers, I have fully explained how I ensured that their times are synced, but I will repeat it here. Wade Singleton started the dive about 30 seconds after Gabe and Tina, so putting the graph from his computer 30 seconds after Gabe's ensures they are accurate. The date and clock times do not match, but that is because the time and date on Gabe's was the default time plus 13 minutes since he removed the battery and did not reset the time and date. The other divers from Jazz II are synced to the starting time based on three eye-witnesses who saw Gabe ascend and Wade ascend and related these times to when the Jass II divers descended.

Divedoggie, there is a link to the dive I did at Blue Water Quarry on the main Dive Incident page as well as within some pages of the articles.

For those coming in new, the link to the index page is Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site.
 
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Roger, There are pages and pages of discussion on this topic addressing your hypothesis, and many others. Do a search here on SB, or I can get you a link.

[Roger: I have read many of the threads on here over the years. And I was glad to read this more detailed account, which cleared up many fallacies and corrected many "facts". Still, as an expert witness in another realm, I found much of this account to be pure conjecture, not based on evidence. Plus he spectulated on areas that are definitely not in his area of being a witness (i.e. Gabe and Tina's true feelings for each other). It's good to hear his opinion, but even he knows that most of what was said by the author would not be allowed in court.]

The fact is, two separate courts found Watson not guilty of murder. The Alabama court acquitted him. It is a fact that he is not guilty of murder.

[Roger: Agreed. But not being found guilty is not the same as being innocent. But I concede he was tried in a court of law and found not guilty. So was O.J.]

Most of us who who teach regularly and witness the mistakes that inexperienced divers make and also witness some diver's false bravado, can clearly see that this was a terrible accident that was mishandled by the police and sensationalized by the press.

[Roger: I've been diving for 13 years and I've seen and been involved with lots of panicked divers. I've saved a few. And they don't take minutes to come up the ascent line.]

Just because you or I would have reacted differently doesn't mean that an innocent man couldn't have reacted poorly and cowardly and completely failed to save his new bride. Panic isn't logical. People do ridiculous things when they panic. Gabe and Tina panicked.

[Roger: Tina had reason to panic.]
 
Roger, There are pages and pages of discussion on this topic addressing your hypothesis, and many others. Do a search here on SB, or I can get you a link. The fact is, two separate courts found Watson not guilty of murder. The Alabama court acquitted him. It is a fact that he is not guilty of murder.

Most of us who who teach regularly and witness the mistakes that inexperienced divers make and also witness some diver's false bravado, can clearly see that this was a terrible accident that was mishandled by the police and sensationalized by the press.

Just because you or I would have reacted differently doesn't mean that an innocent man couldn't have reacted poorly and cowardly and completely failed to save his new bride. Panic isn't logical. People do ridiculous things when they panic. Gabe and Tina panicked.

Michael, thank you for getting caught up, those of us who have followed the case for years and discussed it ad nauseum. The inside view of the court room was enlightening. One thing that you never mentioned was your experience diving at the quarry?? Do tell!

More importantly, panic & ineptitude <> murder.
 
RogerAGrimes:
Still, as an expert witness in another realm, I found much of this account to be pure conjecture, not based on evidence. Plus he spectulated on areas that are definitely not in his area of being a witness (i.e. Gabe and Tina's true feelings for each other).

Bingo. There is so much speculation and conjecture throughout the report that totally undermines the validity of the entire report IMHO.
YMMV.
 
If you are diving with people who ascend 15 metres (50 feet) in a minute, in a strong current, and stop at five metres for perhaps 15 or so seconds, before continuing to the surface, then there is something wrong with the way these people dive.

[Roger: Agreed, but I routinely see people doing this on dive boats around the world. Three decades ago, the recommended ascent rate was 2 feet a second or no faster than your bubble (bubbles travel very fast). When I joined 13 years ago, it was 1 foot a second "just to be conservative". The 2 seconds a foot guideline is a relatively recent recommendation. The more conservative profiles are by far better for the diving communities than the old, but literally tens of millions of divers over decades went up quicker than the current recommendations and quicker than Gabe did. He took 2 minutes to go 40 feet. At that rate, I'm surprised he didn't take a full safety stop.]

Gabe's ascent rates as he went through the 40 foot level was 1.5 to 2 times the recommended safe ascent rate, at the 20 foot level it was 2-3 times the rate. At some time he ascended at 3-4 times the rate. Remember he was aiming at divers he saw on the descent line with the aim of trying to get them to help.

[Roger: Going up faster the last 20 feet is almost done universally by divers, even though it is a risky thing to do. They go from hang line\bar to back of boat in a few seconds, and it happens literally thousands a times a day, and usually without incident. They should go slower, but they dodn't. How come many of the people that Gabe claims he tried to get the attention of don't remember it. Instead, his own profile shows a fairly overall slow profile. 2 minutes to go 40 feet?? I'm sorry, that's just way too slow when your wife is dying, in warm, clear, azure, relatively shallow water. No excuse. Find me another case of a similiar buddy diving accident where the buddy ascended so slow in similiar conditions. I can't remember reading one. So it's just Gabe, unique in the documented diving incident world that just happens, coincidentally, to be the guy that went up that slow while his buddy was dying?]

You may pass out in a minute, but to die you must have air cut off for longer.
[Roger: Agreed. Not contesting this.]

Remember, Tina's air was on when found, so the would have had to wait for at least two minutes before turning it back on. Therefore, the statements I have made are accurate.
[Roger: He would only have to wait as long as it took for her to pass out. Which is probably closer to 1-1:30 for a panicked diver.]

As to the dive computers, I have fully explained how I ensured that their times are synced, but I will repeat it here. Wade Singleton started the dive about 30 seconds after Gabe and Tina, so putting the graph from his computer 30 seconds after Gabe's ensures they are accurate. The date and clock times do not match, but that is because the time and date on Gabe's was the default time plus 13 minutes since he removed the battery and did not reset the time and date. The other divers from Jazz II are synced to the starting time based on three eye-witnesses who saw Gabe ascend and Wade ascend and related these times to when the Jass II divers descended.

[Roger: The 30 second gap was from human guestimation. But you, yourself, completely discount other witnesses eyewitness testimony over and over and over, tellin us how unreliable it is. But you take this 30 second attestation to be the gospel? In your recounting you seem to give Gabe every benefit of the doubt for his testimony and state as a fact any testimony given that supports Gabe, but discount almost every prosecution eyewitness' at every opportunity. When people are following each other and entering the water, to get just a 30 second separation would take that person really being reallly ready to go and jumping in quite quickly. I suggest that most people will underestimate how quickly people jump in after the former diver just as much as they overestimate knots of current. To jump in that quickly you literally have to be a foot away from them and almost jumping on top of them. In any case, your time sync "evidence" is not real evidence. You've done y our best to put it together, but it's still conjecture. If you move the timelines just another 30 seconds, then your other conjecture of events gets even harder to confirm. I'm truly not saying this to be argumentative or mean. I appreciate what you have done. Heck, I like you. But as I read your defense, these are the true feelings and thoughts I had (given that I still think Gabe is guilty).]

[Roger: Perhaps, what colors me a bit is the other evidence as well. It is too strange that Gabe didn't go over to see his wife during resusitation efforts. I was a paramedic for 5 years, and did CPR almost once a week. In every single case over 5 years, the loved one always tried their best to see what was going on and had to be led away or restrained...especially the younger the loved one and more unexpected the death was. They are there because they are expecting their loved one to be saved. But Gabe, again, a grown macho man, didn't fight to see his "living" bride. I take back the former statement, let me modify it a bit. I've seen a few people that didn't want to see the person being worked on. They were all murders. They always acted very strange while the victim was being worked on. Or perhaps I find it overly strange that Gabe heavily flirted with Tina's best friend in the days after Tina's death. When you flirt with someone just after your new wife has died, it isn't just strange and slightly out of bounds, it's sociopathic. And I'm not using that word lightly.]

[Roger: It's not any one thing that makes me believe he is guilty, anymore than it was one thing that makes me think that O.J. is truly guilty, despite the not guilty verdict. It's a bunch of little things. It's his inaction in saving his wife in clear, warm water. It's his overall slow ascent rate. It's her body position with hands out stretched. It's him not wanting to see her while she was being worked on. It's his speech to the others on the boat. It's his constant lying to the family. It's his flirtation with other women. It's his changing stories (you discount the little changes, but most direct truthful testimonie doesn't change at all). It's just little point after little point after big point. I've personally known a man falsely accused of murdering his wife, his new bride. He was actively and aggressively accused by detectives and police for years, and they would have still thought he was the murderer had some other guy not confessed a decade later. You know...he never had a different story. His story and testimony never changed. No one every claimed he changed his story. He watched his wife being worked on. He called her family before he called his own. He didn't flirt with her friends early on. I guess Gabe can just be the inexperienced rube and victim you paint him to be, and if your side is accurate, and he is innocent, it's an amazing series of his own actions that caused him the problems.
 
Bingo. There is so much speculation and conjecture throughout the report that totally undermines the validity of the entire report IMHO.
YMMV.

Agreed. There is so much positive conjecture for Gabe by this author in areas where he is not an expert witness, that he appears more like a central lawyer than an expert witness in a specific area. He dogs (i.e. speculates about) police (even dive trained police) for making and taking statements in areas where they are not experts, and then he does the same throughout the article. If he had just presented the dive evidence, and the speculation about dive events from the evidence, I would have less of a hard time trusting it. But its over and over...what a great guy Gabe is and how horribly incompetent almost every other person interviewed or giving testimony is...that literally turned me back the other way. I have to discount what 20+ people said or did, but believe what one (unfortunate) guy did to agree with his side.
 
On behalf of myself can I say..."Here we go again!".


Clownfishsydney thanks for your blog; I found it illuminating and it was interesting to read things from a different pov. Clearly it was clearly a lot of work.


But if this (4th or 5th) thread on the case is going to examine the minutiae all over again and try Watson for the umpteenth time online, can I ask is there any purpose to it? Is it so people can say...yet again...that he is guilty no matter what the evidence, or lack of it?


Or is it so more people can now get their forum claws into someone else who was presenting the case as he saw it from a different POV, but also from a more insider position? Aren't other people doing exactly the same thing, judging this case from their own pov? And where did Clownfishsydney say his was the definitive answer to all this, because I didn't notice that?


As for there being positive conjecturefor Gabe Watson, I want to say, isn't it about time there was some? Because in the many months I've been reading these threads on here I've noticed a great deal of misinformation and negative conjecture using nothing more than media reports!
 
Roger, these are last comments I will make to your comments as there is no way that you are ever going to change your mind. I do not think you have even read all the pages. There is much more in my pages than was evidence I was going to give. I am setting the scene so people will understand that there are things that led to the animosity between Tina's family and Gabe. This is relevant as it possibly/probably leads to why this became a murder investigation. I have also tried to dispel a lot of what had been written before by people who had no access to information I have that contradicts the accepted view of Gabe. On his own admission, he was not a perfect person, but he is nowhere near as bad as Tina's friends and family have made him out to be.

Ascent rates in Australia have been 30 feet per minute for over 20 years. I suggest finding new people to dive with if they ascend fast in the last 20 feet, it is only a matter of time before one dies. This is the most crucial section of a dive to be slow. Most computers actually now have ascent rates of 15 feet per minute for the last 30 feet.

Gabe and Tina and Wade Singleton and three others all entered the water at the same second. They all did a backward roll off the tender at the same time. Therefore, Gabe and Tina descended first, the others followed. The volunteer dive master said she could easily see them a few metres below her when she started to descend. This equals about 30 seconds in my view.

He needed to wait at least two minutes. No point turning on when she is just unconscious as she could easily stay alive and breathing.

Even if the timeframe is moved another 30 seconds there is no real difference. If it is moved more, then other timeframes come into play that cannot be reconciled.

Yes, it is strange that he did not go over to the other boat, but not everyone behaves the same. He said that there was no way he wanted to see her like that. I know that when after father died, at least one of my siblings could not summon the "courage" to go in and see him. I watched my father die as he was worked on, I am not sure I would ever want to be present if this was to occur again, even for my wife.

What speech to others on the boat? The one when he thanked everyone? Only two people, husband and wife, reported adversely on his speech. Every other person on the boat said that they do not remember anything strange about what he said.

Where is there any evidence that he flirted with Tina's best friend a few days after Tina died? I was in the court when she gave evidence, she said nothing of the kind. I have read her statements and her evidence to the Coroner's Inquest. Again, she never said anything like this.

His inaction in saving Tina in "clear, warm water" comes down to the fact that he was a total novice diver. He had done 15 ocean dives, none of which had been done in the previous 4 years, none in conditions like he encountered and the first time ever he had dived in the ocean without an instructor watching over him.

Ayisha, I know there is nothing that will make you change your mind, you have made that clear over the past month. There is conjecture in my report, there has to be. However, it is based on facts and I make it clear when I am doing this. Some bits prove that Gabe did not kill Tina by cutting off her air. The one thing that proves this is that if he did do it, Tina's air consumption while she was alive had to have been about 100 litres per minute. This is almost 10 times what I use and is so high an amount, she could not possibly have used this much air in such a short period of time.

Again, I will answer any questions from others on this matter.
 
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