Time For Fundies

[DiverLaura]

for some divers (such as myself when i was just starting out) all these wrecks may be an option, for others they are not.

in this case, there was likely the choice of spending the money on Fundies class or via your method (since he doesn't have a private boat) spend it on 6-8 charter boat rides to the wrecks, not counting gas.

You are not asking/finding out how many dives the OP even has... We have a bunch of people in the group with 20-50 dives right now, i'm not gonna tell them to go learn to do ascents on the west point barges, shilshole wrecks, etc.. Is there something wrong with learning the skills in a controlled environment such as Cove 2 and then taking that skill out and practicing/applying it in the 'real world'?

and fwiw, it's about the divers comfort level and what they enjoy doing/how they enjoy doing it... As their dive buddy, wouldn't we prefer them to have the rest of the skills dialed and nice and comfortable with direct ascents before adding in the added entertainment of boat diving? For someone of your caliber Richard, these things are a no brainer, for someone just starting out, maybe its a bit harder.

Maybe some of them simply like to practice as a reason for a dive...

Accidental direct recreational ascents won't kill you. Sometimes you guys agonize over this stuff way too much. There are quite a few wrecks in the 20-90ft range for instance which are quite do-able "pre-fundies". I can think of at last a 24 between the Everett and Olympia all less than 100ft. Most aren't even current sensitive. Many non-DIR divers are doing them with 3min 15ft safety stops or hanging on an anchor line etc. And with a remarkably low hit rate.

A precision timed ascent in decent trim is something you can work on at the end of some other dive. Ditto shooting an SMB, kicks, or just watching stuff and being "still" in the water.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Accidental direct recreational ascents won't kill you. Sometimes you guys agonize over this stuff way too much. There are quite a few wrecks in the 20-90ft range for instance which are quite do-able "pre-fundies". I can think of at last a 24 between the Everett and Olympia all less than 100ft. Most aren't even current sensitive. Many non-DIR divers are doing them with 3min 15ft safety stops or hanging on an anchor line etc. And with a remarkably low hit rate.

A precision timed ascent in decent trim is something you can work on at the end of some other dive. Ditto shooting an SMB, kicks, or just watching stuff and being "still" in the water.

It isn't clear to me here why you seem to be insisting that buoyancy control (and the ability to signal surface support of a problem (smb shoot)) aren't necessary or critical. Sure, you dont need to be in a 1ft window, but I have personally found much more enjoyment on the dives I undertook after I had control and was no longer stressed about the possibility of shooting to the surface. You are very experienced, so I am sure i am just just misunderstanding your point here; Can you maybe elaborate a bit?

 

[Rainer]

I assume Richard's point is that working only on skills is often detrimental to having fun (i.e. results in burn out) and (this part is crucial) comes at the expense of real world diving experience (which is what tends to keep you safe). If all you do is go up and down a line till your buoyancy is great, but haven't bothered to do any other diving, you're going to be just as much (if not more) of a liability on a deeper recreational dive as the guy who has lots of experience doing those dives, but whose buoyancy could use some polishing.

I've seen plenty of divers out of Fundies who have pretty skills but absolutely daft underwater judgment. This inevitably stems from lack of experience (they tend to get better when they stop doing so many quarry/cove dives).

Ultimately, both are needed: practice and fun dives. The ratio (IMO) should veer heavily toward the latter.

 

[nwbrewer]

I think you both missed Richard's point.
Nothing wrong with practicing on the can buoy, but there are plenty of dives (wreck and otherwise) that can be done in the pugetropolis area where you're well within NDL, shallower than 100'.

Do these types of dives for a while. These dives can be done safely without needing T1 quality stops, and are far more representative of the conditions you'll find once you start doing bigger dives than ascending the can buoy in cove 2 repeatedly. Don't spend so much time practicing in Cove 2 that you fail to get out and do some fun dives.

Just my 2 psi...

Jake

 

[rjack321]

I think you both missed Richard's point.
Nothing wrong with practicing on the can buoy, but there are plenty of dives (wreck and otherwise) that can be done in the pugetropolis area where you're well within NDL, shallower than 100'.

Do these types of dives for a while. These dives can be done safely without needing T1 quality stops, and are far more representative of the conditions you'll find once you start doing bigger dives than ascending the can buoy in cove 2 repeatedly. Don't spend so much time practicing in Cove 2 that you fail to get out and do some fun dives.

Just my 2 psi...

Jake

You got it more or less. Not to mention practicing in Cove2 does just basically zilch for developing judgement, planning tides & currents, navigation, etc after the first few times.

You can "practice" most GUE-F type skills on regular dives anywhere. Maybe not over and over and over on the same dive. But every one of those skills can either be done mid-water or on the anchor line at the end of a boat dive. Or in the shallows at the end of a shore dive. That's why they are core skills.

SMBs on boat dives (big whoop you corked from 20ft)
Midwater stops looking at an anchor line instead of a buoy chain
Mask and S drills on shore dives
Kicks and "stillness" anywhere

I would not go to a "practice" site over and over attempting to get something wired to look good in class.

I am pretty sure most GUE instructors would prefer a wise diver with good judgement and awareness of various environmental conditions but rough physical skills. Vs. a diver with perfect physical skills who's not there mentally because they are overwhelmed by novel conditions/sites.

 

[Scott L]

I am glad all that was straightened out.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

I assume Richard's point is that working only on skills is often detrimental to having fun (i.e. results in burn out) and (this part is crucial) comes at the expense of real world diving experience (which is what tends to keep you safe). If all you do is go up and down a line till your buoyancy is great, but haven't bothered to do any other diving, you're going to be just as much (if not more) of a liability on a deeper recreational dive as the guy who has lots of experience doing those dives, but whose buoyancy could use some polishing.

I've seen plenty of divers out of Fundies who have pretty skills but absolutely daft underwater judgment. This inevitably stems from lack of experience (they tend to get better when they stop doing so many quarry/cove dives).

Ultimately, both are needed: practice and fun dives. The ratio (IMO) should veer heavily toward the latter.

You got it more or less. Not to mention practicing in Cove2 does just basically zilch for developing judgement, planning tides & currents, navigation, etc after the first few times.

I would not go to a "practice" site over and over attempting to get something wired to look good in class.

I am pretty sure most GUE instructors would prefer a wise diver with good judgement and awareness of various environmental conditions but rough physical skills. Vs. a diver with perfect physical skills who's not there mentally because they are overwhelmed by novel conditions/sites.

Thanks much for your clarification rjack321, and thanks for your sharing your advice Rainer; Its always great to read the perspectives of much more experienced divers.

I am just speaking from my own very limited personal experience, but it seems that more is made of fundamentals than should be. Nothing in fundamentals requires wisdom. You need to have control of yourself and that is the point of the class--at least is was in mine. We learned propulsion and how to keep ourselves in a very specific point in the water column. I did prepare briefly before class, and I found that the buoyancy preparation not only made the class easier, but it also has made the many non-practice dives I have done since much easier as well. Dealing with current, cold, and <5' vis is easier when i dont have to think about my breathing or buoyancy. Granted, I agree practicing over and over is lame, and you can usually make a "real" dive a "real/practice" dive is you are shrewd and inventive. I have done this many times.

What I have noticed though as i get further away from fundamentals is that I care less about practicing, because I spent enough time early to really learn the fundamentals to a point where they are natural. Now I can make sure I further my awareness and task loading all the while becoming more wise. One thing is certain is that these skills build on each other, and a little effort in the front makes for great enjoyment in the back.

I may not have a thousand + dives, or be the greatest thinker underwater, but as a recent fundamentals graduate who knows what diving was like before and after class and before and after having the skills, I hold firm to my suggestion to the OP to practice really getting his buoyancy to be a natural reaction and control. Whether you do this in the cove2 (i have no experience with cove 2 at all, obviously) or on real dives on shallower targets, it will serve you well.

Of course, I will totally agree with Rainer that the OP should dive as much as possible too.

 

[lamont]

I think you both missed Richard's point.
Nothing wrong with practicing on the can buoy, but there are plenty of dives (wreck and otherwise) that can be done in the pugetropolis area where you're well within NDL, shallower than 100'.

Do these types of dives for a while. These dives can be done safely without needing T1 quality stops, and are far more representative of the conditions you'll find once you start doing bigger dives than ascending the can buoy in cove 2 repeatedly. Don't spend so much time practicing in Cove 2 that you fail to get out and do some fun dives.

Just my 2 psi...

Jake

I didn't miss richards point, I just disagree with it.

Post-fundies divers can do a thousand dives of the standard recreational 100-foot 60-minute profile at sites all over the sound and the variety of the sites isn't going to inherently help them get any better with core skills. I've done it myself and seen it happen. Great fun getting washed down the side of one of the islands in the san juans or something like that, but it doesn't make you any better at doing a deco schedule.

OTOH, the point of a tweak is that on a wednesday night after work when the traffic sucks, there's considerable skills value to going out to cove 2 and learning to hover there in 10 feet of water doing valve drills and s-drills. Once that is learned it can be applied to any other dive sites. And I just don't feel like fighting the traffic on wednesday night to get down to Rendondo or something like that just to satisfy richard -- that doesn't do anything for me.

Plus we used to do the tweaks in Lake Washington and nobody showed up. Everyone shows up at Cove 2. People voted with their feet and Cove 2 it is (even people who bitch about us doing tweaks in Cove 2 didn't bother showing up when it wasn't at Cove 2, while they show up when its at Cove 2).

And again I can point to divers who never mastered the fine, boring art of the can buoy, got themselves tech trained via other agencies and had incidents and don't really dive anymore.

 

[TSandM]

You know, it all really depends on the diver. I had horrible problems mastering buoyancy control (remember, Richard?) and it was really good for me to go out a whole bunch of times to a really easy site and practice things repeatedly. I didn't get bored or burned out, either. And when I finally was doing pretty decently in Cove 2, I took those skills out and dove all over the place, and had much more fun and I think was probably safer than I would have been, had I tried to manage bag shoots from 40 feet when just doing a competent ascent from that depth was still a challenge. (An ascent during our Rec 2 class comes to mind . . . )

It's not good to be a "Cove 2 warrior", but there's nothing wrong with a bit of practice now and then, especially if you don't have immediate access to something more interesting to do.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Nothing in fundamentals requires wisdom. You need to have control of yourself and that is the point of the class--at least is was in mine. We learned propulsion and how to keep ourselves in a very specific point in the water column. I did prepare briefly before class, and I found that the buoyancy preparation not only made the class easier, but it also has made the many non-practice dives I have done since much easier as well.

I would just like to clarify, because I think this section of my post can be misunderstood by people considering fundamentals, and posts on this forum are quite visible.

The class was exceptional, and Bob was an amazing instructor. I was just commenting on the fact that fundamentals is primarily a course that is meant to teach the fundamentals (what an appropriate name, huh?). Team, buoyancy, trim, propulsion, awareness. It is meant to get you going, like a basic course in biochemistry before you pick up NMR and Physical Biochemistry (the fun stuff) or Algebra and Trigonometry prior to Calculus and linear equations (again, the fun stuff). You need to start somewhere to build the base you build every dive thereafter on. So practice, be comfortable, and right when you feel comfortable change it up and push yourself on a slightly more challenging dive. Complacency will get you nowhere.

Ok, now back to the regularly scheduled discussion.