Three divers die in a cave accident, Punta Iacco, Palinuro Italy Aug. 2016

[oya]

There was thread on SB some time ago that discussed the re-make of the short film, "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die", which focused on the dangers of unequipped, untrained divers entering the overhead environment. A couple of posters postulated that the film should be shown to all open water divers as part of their training, noting that "overhead" extended to wrecks and coral "swim-throughs": in other words, environments that pretty much all divers would encounter at one point or another. Not everyone took kindly to the idea, with one poster (an OW instructor, if I recall correctly) in particular arguing that showing the film would frighten divers away from the sport. The upshot is, is that while some OW instructors would be all for the idea of a more in-depth discussion of the hazards of overhead environments, there are others who seem strenuously opposed to the idea.

Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

That's the thread.

I suppose the posters speculating that the video is too scary for people looking to get into the sport can tell the bereaved families of these experts that their loved ones were acceptable losses.

 

[JohnnyC]

This wasn't necessarily a case where all 3 made a genuinely willing choice to enter the cave. If the customer ducked in there, or simply dissapeared near the cave entrance (perhaps just rapidly sinking or drifting away, never having entered the cave), one of the others may have gone in to look for him. They were pros, he was a customer, possibly a good friend too... it would be very hard at that moment to resign all hope of his coming home alive just because you know its a bad idea to try to help. Once one pro is in trouble, the guy outside is his friend, colleage, actually a relative in this case.

People get medals all the time for taking unreasonable risks to save someone else. It isn't fair to praise the same act if all turns out well, but criticise their judgement when it doesn't.

All speculation of course, but just thinking that there may be more than we know to the story.

Well, I'll use the Plura cave recovery as an example since many (although not myself) would consider it taking an unreasonable risk to recover the bodies of 2 compatriots given the depth, time, and logistics involved.

The difference with that great, yet calculated, risk is that all members were well qualified to perform the dives required. Ignoring the camaraderie and sense of duty that drove the recovery, the fact remains that they are all really good divers, more importantly really good, qualified cave divers, who were capable and properly equipped to recover the bodies of their deceased friends. It was a massive undertaking that they were absolutely prepared for. This incident in Italy is about as polar opposite as you can get.

Even if what you suggest is absolutely true in regards to their feelings towards the first(?) victim and that is what drove them to enter the cave, is there any indication that any of them were trained cave divers? A professional bus driver is not the same as even an amateur race car driver. While the evidence is admittedly thin, unless it comes out that they were both cave trained, diving doubles with the proper gear, lights, lines, etc., none of it matters. No matter how it went down, by choice or by chance, intentional or simply a well-intended response to someone else's poor choice, they're dead. At the end of the day, that's the tragedy, one that should be absolutely preventable.

 

[KevinNM]

In Plura, though it isn't clearly shown in the film, they apparently had massive amounts of OC tanks cached throughout the cave for use in case something went wrong during the recovery, along with a deco habitat. This doesn't make it "safe", but it did greatly reduce the risks of this operation.

 

[Altamira]

Most people that have never served in the military, fire fighting, police, and similar professions have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept of risking your own life to save others. I think in most cases of heroic efforts to save others, the rescuers do not sit down and analyze whether or not their actions could put their own lives at risk. They see something that needs to be done to save their buddy, buddies, or perhaps someone they don't even know, and they just do it. As a retired military officer, "a fool" is never an adjective I would ever attach to someone that selflessly risks their life to save others, whether they were successful or not. Personally, I would rather die trying to save a buddy than have to look at myself every day in the mirror and know i could have, but didn't try. I know many others would disagree with that mentality, but I'll bet not many veterans.

 

[oya]

Personally, I would rather die trying to save a buddy than have to look at myself every day in the mirror and know i could have, but didn't try.

While your point is commendable, I have to disagree. Diving is very different. This is a recreation where lives are not supposed to be at risk.

When someone rushes headlong into a dangerous situation for which they are not trained or prepared they are being foolhardy and their valour is actually selfish.

They are, in that moment, deciding to put THEIR OWN rescuer (or the person who is to retrieve their body) in harm's way, into a dangerous and stressful situation not of their own making. They are putting someone else, by virtue of being the most trained person nearby, unwittingly in the position of having to carry the memory of another drowned face around in their head for the rest of their lives.

It's the first thing taught in any rescue, safety, or first aid course: don't become a second victim.

When one finds themselves in technical dive circles there comes a point where you have the crappy "What if" conversations with your buddies. The ones where you discuss "How long I will look for you before I leave" or "What if you're unconcious and I have a deco obligation," or "How will I live if you are probably dead?"

These conversations are uncomfortable, but if you haven't had them with the people you are going into a cave with... you don't have any business going into a cave at all.

If you're going to save your buddies: do it before the dive with proper planning and a willingness to say, "Guys, I don't think this is a good idea" if it isn't.

 

[boulderjohn]

In addition to what Oya said, another reason you do not put yourself in the position of becoming a second victim is that it is a lot harder for another rescuer to rescue two people than one person. A rescue that was too difficult for you at your skill level may well have been well within the skill level of another rescuer, but if that rescuer has to rescue two people....

A good example of this is a rescue in a cave made by Edd Sorenson a few years ago. A father (dive instructor) took his two teenage children on a tour of Florida Springs, and against all advice he took them to Twin Cave in Marianna, FL. The daughter charged in, flutter kicking the soft silt into a storm behind her. Her brother was a bit behind. Fortunately, two divers were completing their decompression, saw what was happening, grabbed their guideline, and headed out, luckily blundering into the panicked brother on the way. Outside the opening, as plumes of silt billowed out into the open water, the distraught father wanted to go in to rescue his daughter, but the cave divers stopped him while they used their cell phones to call Sorenson. He got there as soon as he could. There was so much silt he at first could not even find the opening. Searching in the zero visibility, he eventually found her--breathing from an air pocket at the top of the cave. He saved her.

If the father had gone in after his daughter, at least one of them would have died.

 

[Altamira]

While your point is commendable, I have to disagree. Diving is very different. This is a recreation where lives are not supposed to be at risk.

When someone rushes headlong into a dangerous situation for which they are not trained or prepared they are being foolhardy and their valour is actually selfish.

They are, in that moment, deciding to put THEIR OWN rescuer (or the person who is to retrieve their body) in harm's way, into a dangerous and stressful situation not of their own making. They are putting someone else, by virtue of being the most trained person nearby, unwittingly in the position of having to carry the memory of another drowned face around in their head for the rest of their lives.

It's the first thing taught in any rescue, safety, or first aid course: don't become a second victim.

When one finds themselves in technical dive circles there comes a point where you have the crappy "What if" conversations with your buddies. The ones where you discuss "How long I will look for you before I leave" or "What if you're unconcious and I have a deco obligation," or "How will I live if you are probably dead?"

These conversations are uncomfortable, but if you haven't had them with the people you are going into a cave with... you don't have any business going into a cave at all.

If you're going to save your buddies: do it before the dive with proper planning and a willingness to say, "Guys, I don't think this is a good idea" if it isn't.

Yes, I have heard the mantra "Don't become a second victim" from others on this board on numerous occasions, and have had some pretty heated discussions with at least one proponent of that philosophy. I think a person's philosophy about such matters has much to do about their background and experiences, combined with natural concern for ones own safety. Willingness to put your own safety at risk has nothing whatsoever to do with the relative risk of the underlying activity. Being faced with a crisis while diving is no different than facing a crisis while walking your dog (not a normally risky activity), such as coming upon a burning car or building with people inside. Do you call 911, then say to yourself "I don't want to become another victim", then turn around and walk away, or just be a bystander, or do you try to save the lives, putting your own safety at risk, even though you are not a trained fire fighter/rescuer? There is no question that a person's philosophy, and action in time critical crises, is a very personal decision, but I often wonder if it was your family in the burning car or house, would you prefer someone like me show up on the scene or someone who lives by the mantra "don't become a second victim?" Believe me, I do understand the other philosophy, and it sounds rational and good when sitting safely in a briefing or bar discussing the issue over a cold beer, but I am pretty sure I could not follow that philosophy in time of crisis. Likewise, I certainly don't expect anyone to change the way they think or feel about such scenarios--it's a personal, usually spur-of-the-moment decision.

 

[oya]

philosophy

I'm willing to chalk it up to a difference in philosophy, sure.

But I will believe that your philosophy of a willingness to recklessly throw yourself into harms way, in situations for which you are neither trained, equipped, or prepared, and put even more people in danger is a dangerous one and I wouldn't dive with you, much less cave dive.

I do cave dive with my wife. We have had the conversations I reference above.

 

[Kodad]

Here's a recap of Edd's rescue at Twin Caves:

Rescue at Twin Caves- A Lesson for SCUBA Divers | Florida Dive Connection - Florida SCUBA Diving News and Information

 

[JohnnyC]

Lol, the idea the being a complete moron out of some misplaced sense of altruism is somehow to be exalted?

Sorry Altamira, there's a huge difference between doing something risky to save your buddy when you're reasonably equipped to do so, but following your buddy into a kiddie pool full of gasoline while he sucks down a Marlboro and says "let's play gasoline fight" as he sparks up a road flare? Suicide under the guise of altruism isn't something to aspire to.