Three divers die in a cave accident, Punta Iacco, Palinuro Italy Aug. 2016

[CptTightPants21]

No-one knows The Right Answer™. It's always a continuum, and no-one knows where the border that separates black from white in a fuzzy grey continuum lies. Hindsight is always 20/20.

That said, I have to admit that I have little respect for what I perceive as a very Anglo-Saxon cultural phenomenon: the reverence of the heroic, but futile attempt. In my opinion, a rescuer should never attempt a rescue operation unless that person has a minimum of competence and is able to competently assess the risk they are taking. Mindless and incompetent rescue attempts don't deserve praise, because they will most probably only result in another fatality.

Playing a little devil's advocate here, if you decided to go back for a buddy would you assume a "level of competence" and an ability to "assess the risk". Sometimes these things are in the eye of the beholder and sometimes they are blatantly obvious (the father of the teenage that Sorenson saved is a good example).

At the end of the day, it is each person's own choice whether to risk their life trying to save another. Anyone who makes this choice needs to be able to deal with the consequences, one way or the other.

I will never fault a man who chooses not to risk his life to help, I will only fault him if he prevents others from making their own decision.

My personal opinion: I'll go back for friends and complete strangers, Darwin can have the assholes.

 

[Storker]

I will never fault a man who chooses not to risk his life to help, I will only fault him if he prevents others from making that same choice

At least on this, we totally agree.

I confused quite a few people in the aftermath of the Plura body recovery operation. Yes, Mark Dougherty's decision to abort the official recovery operation was 100% correct. And the decision of Saami Pakkarinen and the rest of his team to break the traffic ban and recover their mates' bodies was just as correct. They both made a decision on the basis of their extremely competent risk assessment and risk acceptance, and no-one has the right to second-guess or criticize their decision. I got more than a few blank stares from voicing that opinion...

 

[CptTightPants21]

At least on this, we totally agree.

I confused quite a few people in the aftermath of the Plura body recovery operation. Yes, Mark Dougherty's decision to abort the official recovery operation was 100% correct. And the decision of Saami Pakkarinen and the rest of his team to break the traffic ban and recover their mates' bodies was just as correct. They both made a decision on the basis of their extremely competent risk assessment and risk acceptance, and no-one has the right to second-guess or criticize their decision. I got more than a few blank stares from voicing that opinion...

Completely agree.

Those blank stares......Now you know what it feels like to be a Libertarian

 

[Altamira]

In these cases you are talking about people doing what is their job under conditions for which they have been trained, and they are following that training. To do otherwise would be a dereliction of their duties. That is a huge difference.

John, I highly respect your opinions and comments, but in this case, I think you missed my point. The stuff I am talking about goes way beyond what they were paid or expected to do in the performance of their duties. That defines the difference between a heroic action (some on this board would consider a foolish action) and what everyone else did or would do in the same circumstance. Every one of the real world heroes that I have met would tell you they were just doing their job, and their buddies would do the same for them, but that is clearly not the case. The military does not hand out high level medals for valor for just doing your job, and I doubt first responder profssions do either.

 

[oya]

Since you're so eager to extend the military analogy:

Would you want a loved one going into a hostile zone with someone who was fresh out of basic or with a ranger/seal/green beret?

If a loved one was trapped inside a hostile area, would you want me (someone who has fired a gun once in my life) going in after them? Or do you want me calling in the cavalry?

I'm not a soldier, though. I'm a diver.
I once chased a girl who was making an uncontrolled ascent to a place where giant waves smash constantly into a giant cliff. It's unlikely either of us would have survived if I hadn't managed to stop her, maybe 20 feet from the surface. It's unlikely they'd be able to even get at our bodies anytime soon.
I didn't get a medal. Hell, I barely got a tip.
Am I a hero?

But we're not talking about war. We're talking about diving. And my key point, time and again, is no one HAS TO do any of this. If anyone is going to, they should get trained or know enough to call it before bad things have a chance to happen.

 

[Kodad]

Sometimes the difference between heroic and foolhardy is dependent on the outcome of the situation....sometimes....

 

[CptTightPants21]

Since you're so eager to extend the military analogy:

Would you want a loved one going into a hostile zone with someone who was fresh out of basic or with a ranger/seal/green beret?

If a loved one was trapped inside a hostile area, would you want me (someone who has fired a gun once in my life) going in after them? Or do you want me calling in the cavalry?

I'm not a soldier, though. I'm a diver.
I once chased a girl who was making an uncontrolled ascent to a place where giant waves smash constantly into a giant cliff. It's unlikely either of us would have survived if I hadn't managed to stop her, maybe 20 feet from the surface. It's unlikely they'd be able to even get at our bodies anytime soon.
I didn't get a medal. Hell, I barely got a tip.
Am I a hero?

But we're not talking about war. We're talking about diving. And my key point, time and again, is no one HAS TO do any of this. If anyone is going to, they should get trained or know enough to call it before bad things have a chance to happen.

I have lost whatever point you were trying to make. When has anyone ever said that a diver with 10 dives should attempt a dangerous rescue?

Altamira has been making some decent points and attempting to discuss principles with you, and I have not seen him argue that a diver "HAS TO do any thing". You seem to be spewing out posts just for the sake of disagreement, I have no idea what you are arguing about.

 

[oya]

I have lost whatever point you were trying to make.

Most simply:
Rushing in to a situation for which you are not trained, equipped, or prepared -- likely to become a second victim who someone else needs to deal with at their own risk -- does not equate you to a Medal of Honor awardee.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Most simply:
Rushing in to a situation for which you are not trained, equipped, or prepared -- likely to become a second victim who someone else needs to deal with at their own risk -- does not equate you to a Medal of Honor awardee.

I haven't seen him equate anyone to a Medal of Honor awardee. As for the rushing untrained, unequipped, and unprepared, unless your definition of trained, equipped, and prepared only includes police/fire/gov't rescue divers, I haven't seen him advocating that either...

 

[Altamira]

Since you're so eager to extend the military analogy:


I'm not a soldier, though. I'm a diver.
I once chased a girl who was making an uncontrolled ascent to a place where giant waves smash constantly into a giant cliff. It's unlikely either of us would have survived if I hadn't managed to stop her, maybe 20 feet from the surface. It's unlikely they'd be able to even get at our bodies anytime soon.
I didn't get a medal. Hell, I barely got a tip.
Am I a hero?

I think so. That pretty much fits my definition. But I am pretty sure you feel you were just doing your job, as do most people that put their own safety at risk to help someone stay safe. You made a calculated assessment of your capabilities verses the risk, and went for it. If you had underestimated the risk or your capabilities, as you said, both of you might not have survived. Then somebody on this board might be calling you a moron. But it would not be me. Sorry you did not get a tip, probably not even a thank you.