Three dead in Poland last week

[johndiver999]

Just for clarification, I think he indicated the visibility was 3 m rather than 1 m?

I apologize if you feel I was misrepresenting your prior opinion about the buddy's actions that day. I know how easy it is to lose a buddy, so that is one reason why I was (erroneously) thinking that the appropriate response would be to maintain physical contact and and to ascend directly.

If I were on a similar OC dive, I am pretty sure I would have started an ascent, but I now understand that things are entirely different with a RB and dry suit etc. and that my limited perspective is not relevant to this situation.

 

[lowwall]

Dr. Mitchell and fsardone,

Thank you for your responses. I find the topic of risk mitigation efforts and risk acceptance in various activities to be fascinating.

But I still wonder. Given this particular set of circumstances, would most RB divers consider the dive plan to be unacceptable?

 

[Hiszpan]

For what it's worth, I am pasting in a bathygraphic map of Lake Hancza.
I have dived there before - as you can see on the map, the depth increases very quickly.
Divers in that accident were diving from Parking Lot number 1, which is on the eastern shore (marked as Parking 1 - green icon):

They should not have been very far from the shore at any point in time.

 

[lowwall]

Ok, now I really don't understand why the immediate reaction once diver 1 realized his dazed buddy was on OC air wasn't to lead him (pull him if necessary) upslope to around 20m depth where all the deep air issues are mitigated. Given the topographic profile, this would have only taken 2-4 minutes. It didn't really matter if they got off course as long as they were rising. At worst they would have surfaced a short walk or surface swim from their starting point and it was daytime.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Ok, now I really don't understand why the immediate reaction once diver 1 realized his dazed buddy was on OC air wasn't to lead him (pull him if necessary) upslope to around 20m depth where all the deep air issues are mitigated. Given the topographic profile, this would have only taken 2-4 minutes. It didn't really matter if they got off course as long as they were rising. At worst they would have surfaced a short walk or surface swim from their starting point and it was daytime.

Perhaps consider reading the firsthand account again. The buddy was maintaining contact and leading the deceased back. Separation occurred when he had to vent his own gear, this implies they were ascending. Yes, I think ideally they should have remained in touch contact at all times. Reality isn't always that simple, I can tell you from personal experience how difficult it is to bring up someone frozen in panic from 115'/35m on OC while controlling both their and your bouyancy. On CCR I've only done it in class from 25'/8m, and that was much, much more involved. It was a bad situation to be in and it sounds like the buddy did what they could.

 

[rjack321]

Ok, now I really don't understand why the immediate reaction once diver 1 realized his dazed buddy was on OC air wasn't to lead him (pull him if necessary) upslope to around 20m depth where all the deep air issues are mitigated. Given the topographic profile, this would have only taken 2-4 minutes. It didn't really matter if they got off course as long as they were rising. At worst they would have surfaced a short walk or surface swim from their starting point and it was daytime.

If the victim had a CO2 event at depth or the diluent and the OC bailout were both from a contaminated source (eg a narcotic hydrocarbon) neither would likely be attenuated in 3 or 4 minutes nor by ascending to 20m.

 

[stuartv]

@rolanddiver , @Kay Dee With the caveat that they are “best guess numbers,” Fock concluded that rebreather diving is likely five to 10 times as risky as open circuit scuba diving, accounting for about four to five deaths per 100,000 dives, compared to about 0.4 to 0.5 deaths per 100,000 dives for open circuit scuba. This makes rebreather diving more risky than sky diving at .99/100k, but far less risky than base-jumping at 43 deaths/100k. And, of course, Dr. Fock is ignorant and does not know what he's talking about. Or maybe he's a troll.

Your earlier statement compared solo diving to CCR and cave diving. This statement contains nothing about solo or cave.

I think your posts and the attitude displayed are, *ahem*, not helpful in any way.

Just for clarification, I think he indicated the visibility was 3 m rather than 1 m?

I apologize if you feel I was misrepresenting your prior opinion about the buddy's actions that day. I know how easy it is to lose a buddy, so that is one reason why I was (erroneously) thinking that the appropriate response would be to maintain physical contact and and to ascend directly.

If I were on a similar OC dive, I am pretty sure I would have started an ascent, but I now understand that things are entirely different with a RB and dry suit etc. and that my limited perspective is not relevant to this situation.

You did and continue to represent the loss of the buddy as a decision on the part of the diver. That is just ridiculous. The diver did not make a decision to lose his buddy. Letting go of him physically, in order to accomplish some other required task is not a decision to lose his buddy. If a juggler drops one of his 7 balls, does that mean he made a decision to drop the ball? No. It means that circumstances exceeded his ability to keep control of that ball.

Diving a CCR is more complicated than diving OC. And, ascents are the MOST complicated part of diving a CCR. Gases are expanding all over the place. ppO2 levels are dropping. Injectors are firing to make up for the dropping ppO2 (possibly, if diving an eCCR), which means the machine is adding gas to the loop, which you are already dealing with having it expanding and making you positive.

It's a lot. I have about 80 hours on the loop. That is nothing by the standards of the truly experienced people on here. But, I'm well past being a total newbie and it is still a lot, for me. Taking all that and adding the job of doing it or making sure it's done for your (compromised) buddy, in addition to doing all that for oneself is a LOT.

Doing what one HAS to do to keep oneself from corking, and losing your buddy in the process, does not (necessarily) represent a bad decision on the part of the diver. Unless you simply fall back to saying "buddy diving on a CCR in low viz is a bad decision, period." In which case, well, that's a subjective statement with no real refutation, I don't think, other than, "my opinion differs."


I really appreciate the original post, the translation, and the experienced people who have shared their insights here. Thank you to all of you.

 

[flymolo]

Solo divers do not die. The rebreather and cave divers do.

This sort of assertion is neither helpful nor respectful in any way.

 

[Stoo]

Were they so fixated on completing the original dive plan that they failed to realize the plan was already busted??

Same thought here... reduce depth as soon as it's reasonably possible. To quote our local Diving Doc, "We can fix bent. We can't fix dead.".

Apart from that, this sounds like a well-planned and executed dive. Honestly, compared to the CFs that my friends and I carry off ever weekend, this is hard to explain.

 

[elmo]

Perhaps consider reading the firsthand account again. The buddy was maintaining contact and leading the deceased back. Separation occurred when he had to vent his own gear, this implies they were ascending. Yes, I think ideally they should have remained in touch contact at all times.

There's a good reason in cave diving why if the dive is called because of an incident affecting one diver then the impaired diver is ahead on the way out. It is much easier to keep an eye on a diver ahead of you than it is on one behind. This wasn't a cave, but the principle remains sound.

Of course, commenting in retrospect is much easier than responding in an emergency. Additionally, navigating to the exit in poor visibility while impaired, is difficult, especially when there's no line to follow (as there would be in a cave).