Thoughts on Training, Panic, and Hazing

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Entanglement practice would have been really useful. Especially if we had to actually cut through some monofilament. The closest I got was getting caught in a coral swim through and had to undo the BC, slip out and unhook the bits that got caught. I'm surprised I got caught as I'm 1/3 the girth of my buddy (& he went through first) and I like to keep all the dangly bits tucked-in & simple.

As part of a cave class, you will learn how to cut yourself free in case of entanglement while still maintaining control of the line to get out. I will be taking an advanced wreck course this summer, and I expect it to be a part of that also as the inside of wrecks can be messy. We don't carry these big honking knives. I have two z-knives on my left and right harness straps up near my shoulders, and I have a pair of shears that I carry in a pocket. In all the diving I have done, I have never found myself needing to fight Shamu or Jaws.
 
The skills posed by the OP are great fodder for a freediving class. That class if marketed properly, can enhance diving skills, but it would be counterproductive in a beginning LDS class. It might be a throwback to the time when those of us (yes, I was there too) who passed a beginning class already had lifeguard certifications and would have passed the class, no matter what skills were thrown at us.

Hey sweatfrog, could you explain what you mean here by "marketed properly" and how it would be counterproductive in a beginning LDS class? In your opinion, would it be counterproductive to market these skills to a beginning OW class? If so, why? Thanks!
 
I think all of those things sound very appropriate. If you want to increase the level of difficulty, you might throw in a maskless air sharing exercise, or navigating while sharing gas, (or both at the same time). Compound problems (within reason, of course) to increase the difficulty of the exercise. Another one I like for training is to set up a line course of specific length, place one diver at the end, facing away fromt he course. The other diver starts at the opposite end of the course, maskless, and "out of air" they navigate the course to the other diver, get their attention and commence an air sharing drill while reversing the line course. The drill in and of itself has limited real world applicability, but the individual pieces are all very applicable.

A couple of others I used early on in OW classes:

marble drill- dump a couple of dozen marbles on the pool floor. Each diver collects marbles by flooding the mask, inserting the marble and then clearing the mask. Repeat until all the marbles are gone. The student with the most marbles at the end of the drill "wins". It's a fun and non threatening way for students practice mask clearing to the point of mastery.

mask jumble drill- take all the students masks and wad them up into a big knot- place them on the bottom of the pool. Students dive down and get a mask, placing it on the face, then find their mask. The first to come back with his or her own mask "wins". This one lets them practice mask removal and replacement.

One thing I think is very important is to stress the idea that drills/ learning skills in class should be done in motion. I can't tell you how many times I have watched OW classes during checkout dives practice buddy breathing or gas sharing without moving. Sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?


Mask clearing is not a big issue for us but your drills do look like fun. As for air sharing we do that both moving and ascending once and a while.

The other thing we do as a regular part of our diving is buoyancy practice. We test each other on who can ascend the slowest from 20’, who can hold a stop at the shallowest depth. You know your trim and buoyancy is good when you can hold trim and depth at 4’-5’.

Overall, one’s diving proficiency improves the more you dive as long as you practice correctly. Having someone video tape you when you are diving makes a huge difference as well. It is fun to play a tape of a seasoned diver who believes their trim is great and watch their expression as they notice they look like a titer-totter.
 
As part of a cave class, you will learn how to cut yourself free in case of entanglement while still maintaining control of the line to get out. I will be taking an advanced wreck course this summer, and I expect it to be a part of that also as the inside of wrecks can be messy. We don't carry these big honking knives. I have two z-knives on my left and right harness straps up near my shoulders, and I have a pair of shears that I carry in a pocket. In all the diving I have done, I have never found myself needing to fight Shamu or Jaws.

Nor I :blinking:
I always try to keep a good distance on the boat (& in the water) from the frogmen/rambo wannabes.

It sucks that we have to wait until cave to get some good practice in (I don't think it's covered in wreck - they just talk about it). Although I agree that OW/AOW is definitely too early for that.

I wonder if there's a market for underwater quilting? :confused:
 
The skills posed by the OP are great fodder for a freediving class. That class if marketed properly, can enhance diving skills, but it would be counterproductive in a beginning LDS class. It might be a throwback to the time when those of us (yes, I was there too) who passed a beginning class already had lifeguard certifications and would have passed the class, no matter what skills were thrown at us.
While I agree in part (e.g., it a good front end for a free diving class) it is also an excellent front end for a scuba class, which is how we used it. We were not teaching lifeguard types, we were teaching people who were competent swimmers but who did not, by and large, have backgrounds as athletes or water people and it worked damn well for them. If, as one measure of success, we look at whether people are still diving four years later, we had about an 80% success rate, what do you think the numbers still diving are four years after an LDS course? And why the difference?

Not a lot of growth in the scuba industry at that time. As a matter of fact, my wife was watching a show on quilting recently and there is more money made per year with that hobby, than the whole diving industry. I for one, see no reason to go back to those times.

Good thread for academia purposes though.
There's not a lot of growth in diving at this time either. Diving is smaller than pickles, way smaller than quilting, way smaller than archery or fencing, smaller even than bocce ball, how many of you even know what bocce ball is? Why diving is such a fly spec is fodder for other threads, but if I may hijack my own thread for a moment, its the dropout rate and better training producing more comfortable divers will, I think, go a long way to lower the dropout rate.
 
Hey sweatfrog, could you explain what you mean here by "marketed properly" and how it would be counterproductive in a beginning LDS class? In your opinion, would it be counterproductive to market these skills to a beginning OW class? If so, why? Thanks!
If I lived somewhere that freediving was easy to teach, instead of doing a jackknife dive and waiting until my facemask hit the bottom, so I knew I was there, I could get enough people to make it worth my while. If you've ever seen the show Offshore Adventures, it gives Instructors great footage to teach people spearfishing, while freediving.

I wish that I had the time to teach people the freediving techniques listed in this thread, during an Open Water course. The price of the OW course precludes that at the present time, especially with the gas prices skyrocketing. It's the time versus the dollars that feed the bottom line in any small business.

While I agree in part If, as one measure of success, we look at whether people are still diving four years later, we had about an 80% success rate, what do you think the numbers still diving are four years after an LDS course? And why the difference?
Contrary to the type of diving that scientists are doing, the general public wants to dive on their vacation and that's OK. As people change, get married, have babies or feed their families their interests also change. The average life span of a scuba Instructor is 2 years. I've had my main cadre for well over 5 years. After kids grow up, I see second and third generations of new divers. I don't think putting skills that people don't need and get frustrated with necessarily make a better course. There is a time and place for freediving skills.

I do see people who have no problems with scuba move to another sport faster than someone who works hard to get it.

There's not a lot of growth in diving at this time either.
No kidding!:(

its the dropout rate and better training producing more comfortable divers will, I think, go a long way to lower the dropout rate.
Just trying to keep people diving will go a long way toward lowering the dropout rate. Everyone has their own idea about what quality training is, but if people don't continue to dive, they will feel like someone just starting a cave course, when they start up again. They will have to relearn buoyancy and all that other stuff they should have learned the first time around.
 
If I lived somewhere that freediving was easy to teach, instead of doing a jackknife dive and waiting until my facemask hit the bottom, so I knew I was there, I could get enough people to make it worth my while. If you've ever seen the show Offshore Adventures, it gives Instructors great footage to teach people spearfishing, while freediving.

I wish that I had the time to teach people the freediving techniques listed in this thread, during an Open Water course. The price of the OW course precludes that at the present time, especially with the gas prices skyrocketing. It's the time versus the dollars that feed the bottom line in any small business.

Learning comfort in the water through freediving isn't something that necessarily requires deep, clear water (which I guess you wouldn't have a lot of in Tulsa :D). In fact, the majority of what I do with freedive training is in pool and classroom. Even with a limit in ideal open water freedive opportunities here, I can go to my local quarry where the max depth is 25' and practice simulated 120' freedives.
I suppose the time issue can be considered relevant but, to me, this is strangely ironic. You see the time I devote to proficient freediving with the students is reflected in the efficiency of scuba skill acquisition, essentially noting no significant time lost and significant gains made in student performance. Basing this solely on personal observations and past personal trends.
 
If I lived somewhere that freediving was easy to teach, instead of doing a jackknife dive and waiting until my facemask hit the bottom, so I knew I was there, I could get enough people to make it worth my while. If you've ever seen the show Offshore Adventures, it gives Instructors great footage to teach people spearfishing, while freediving.
The freediving skills that are being discussed can all be taught in a pool.
I wish that I had the time to teach people the freediving techniques listed in this thread, during an Open Water course. The price of the OW course precludes that at the present time, especially with the gas prices skyrocketing. It's the time versus the dollars that feed the bottom line in any small business.
I'm not suggesting that you run "my" course, just that students who receive effective free diving training make better divers who are less likely to drop out. In point of fact, the time spent on free diving skills is more than recovered by the students' more rapid progression through the other skills.
Contrary to the type of diving that scientists are doing, the general public wants to dive on their vacation and that's OK. As people change, get married, have babies or feed their families their interests also change. The average life span of a scuba Instructor is 2 years. I've had my main cadre for well over 5 years. After kids grow up, I see second and third generations of new divers. I don't think putting skills that people don't need and get frustrated with necessarily make a better course. There is a time and place for freediving skills.
Now you appear to be grasping at straws for an excuse to not include freediving skills. Give it a try, for one class, I think you'll be happily surprised. I've trained plenty of divers who are not scientists or scientists to be. Some dive just on vacation, others enjoy the local waters, but almost all of them keep doing it. All of them buy a full set of gear. Most of them buy drysuits. Most of them buy a computer. Most of them buy some photographic gear. A few buy DPVs. Do the numbers yourself, what's more profitable and stable? An LDS that trains 300 divers per year, each spending about $500 with an 80% drop out rate or a shop that trains 100 divers a year each spending a couple of grand with a dropout rate of less than 10% (think about what those 90+ divers who are left will spend next year)? I know lots of families who dive, but I know lots more who boat, ski, bicycle, play tennis, motorcycle, snowmobile, fly, ride horses, hike, etc. As they age and change and get married and have babies and need to feed their families their interests don't really change, they keep doing those things, maybe cut back a little in their twenties, but they do not give their activities up, and when their careers stabilize they're right back at it. But your are right about diving ... most do seem to stop diving. We need to figure out why that is. I submit that at least part of it is that they are never really comfortable diving and, in reality, they have given up on diving before their open water training dives are done, it's just a question of time.
I do see people who have no problems with scuba move to another sport faster than someone who works hard to get it.
With all due respect, and this is not intended to do anything except make you think about the issue: your perception is that people who have no problems with scuba move to other activities faster than people who invest more time and effort to make it happen. Correct? Two problems here. The first is that it is your perception, others might recognize blocks to wanting to dive that you don't see. The second is a logical fallacy, let's grant for the moment that your perception is accurate and commitment to diving is in direct proportion to the energy put in to master the dicipline. If, by adding freediving skills to the front end we both make the student more comfortable and raise their investment of time and effort, by your own perception they should be less likely to shift activities.

No kidding!:(
So what're you gonna do about it? Maybe it's time to experiment with something that you've not tried before.:D

Just trying to keep people diving will go a long way toward lowering the dropout rate. Everyone has their own idea about what quality training is, but if people don't continue to dive, they will feel like someone just starting a cave course, when they start up again. They will have to relearn buoyancy and all that other stuff they should have learned the first time around.
You've hit on a critical point, one that I decided earlier not to address, but perhaps I should have. People who are comfortable in the water learn faster and retain more. They are more willing to undertake the activity on their own once the course is over. If they continue the activity for a number of years they will reach a level of accomplishment that they do not need to start over, they just need to refresh. But we need to teach them how to refresh as part of the training that we provide in the first place. We do that, the breathhold kata, the freediving doff and don, the scuba doff and don, the buddy breathing doff and don, the curcuit swim, these are all thing exercises that our divers have ingrained into them. These are all exercises that they can use to "tune up" anytime that they feel the need. These are exercises that will permit them to quickly recapture the confidence and skills that may have rusted a little. This is quite important since in many cases a researcher will learn to dive, put in a field season or two, then be back in the lab for an extended period before heading out on another field season.

Think it over a little, don't hold back. Please don't.

Consider what Merry Brown said, “Preconceived notions are the locks on the door to wisdom.”
 
Part of the problem/issue is that there is no commonly accepted standard for swimming competency when someone says "I can swim". I've met many people who tell me they are competent swimmers and they doggy paddle the resort pool! Can they do 10 laps? No, they can barely do 2! But yet they tell others that they are "good swimmers".

We don't need to all be competitive swimmers/waterbabies, but when you see a 6'2 200+lb guy doggy paddling his OW swim test & still make it in the time limit (quite a thing to watch BTW :11:), you wonder how comfortable he really is in the water & I'm certain that he wasn't mocking the test - how attractive is the doggy paddle on a grown man?

As for those who move on to scuba naturally and treat it as a passing fad - many HS friends have done so, getting their DM/Instr & never touching a reg again. But most of that might be due to logisitcs. When you're a teenager, half the stuff is set up and thought out for you: the ride to the site/boat, money for the dives + lunch, finding a loaner jet ski/windsurfer for the SI!
 
...

We don't need to all be competitive swimmers/waterbabies, but when you see a 6'2 200+lb guy doggy paddling his OW swim test & still make it in the time limit (quite a thing to watch BTW :11:), you wonder how comfortable he really is in the water & I'm certain that he wasn't mocking the test - how attractive is the doggy paddle on a grown man?
I am a 6'2" 200+lb guy (which may not be attractive to anyone except my wife) and I can easily meet the swimming requirements of even a NAUI or LA County ITC doing the sidestroke. It does not take much in the way of either conditioning or skill.
...
As for those who move on to scuba naturally and treat it as a passing fad - many HS friends have done so, getting their DM/Instr & never touching a reg again.
Perhaps, as Sweatfrog observed its because they had little real investment in it. It is rather easier to get a DM/Inst rating than it once was, and it must be a great disappointment for those who breeze through the current programs and then find out that they can make more money and even get benefits slinging fast food.
 

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