Thoughts on double Hose experience dives for customers?

[beanojones]

There are enough differences in technique and operation and characteristics that I think tossing a "tourist" into a twin hose regulator with no training is a potential very bad thing.

They are not hard to dive but they are different.

N

I would not just be renting it out to them. Like my idea to have tiny doubles (with the full long hose and bungie reg, and manifolds) to try, it would be something that maybe only few would ask about, and fewer would try. The difference is I have lots of experience with doubles, and but a tiny bit of experience with Double hose regs, and that was years ago.

I do think it is a shame that DM's and Instructors have never dove Double Hose regs. I would as much as require DM's to learn about if not try double hose regs, if I had them. They might just sit in the corner of the shop though. I think it depends on how many long term customers I get. If I get a few who come out for a month at a time for DM courses, then I assume they will see more usage.

 

[beanojones]

My question was: How experienced are your test divers?


If they are very experienced and comfortable divers, use a Phoenix with a plastic plate or Freedom plate and harness. The positioning will be close to where it needs to be, and I can tell you from my experience, even with experienced divers (as was I) Double hosers have nuances that must be learned. As way more knowledgeable divers have stated above, learning to purge, share air, etc isn't something that is learned in a pool session. However, if it's a one time experience in a pool, I guess it would be OK.

If they are new divers, ditch this idea altogether. Most new first-time divers are just trying not to die underwater. Things like bouyancy, postioning will not be at the top of their list of skills. They will not enjoy the experience.

My 002psi

Are you saying to dive without a Buoyancy control device of any kind? The only people I can see even wanting to do this would have their buoyancy nailed down tight, but since those people would be in wetsuits (usu 5 mil), they would suffer enough buoyancy swing to need to drop weight/add air at depth.

I guess it would make it all part of the vintage dive experience if they had to control height in the water column by body angle alone.

 

[herman]

I am a little late to the conversation- just got back from a week diving a Phoenix and no BC.

I have done several "Try DH diving" days for a couple of LDSs and one for NC Divers (Miss Blue was there) so my comments are based on putting 30-40 divers in DH regs. So far pretty much everyone has enjoyed themselves. Here are my thoughts on it.


I do it as a 1 on 1 experience. I spend an hour or so in a class room setting doing dog and pony on the regs, how they are different and how they dive differently. This IMO is critical because the diver MUST be aware of and be expecting the differences to diving a DH reg brings. Since I go full old school - no BC- I also spend time on proper weighting and follow it with practical in the pool.

I would not/do not take new or inexperienced divers into OW in a DH reg until I have spent some time evaluating them, a pool is fine. DH regs are different amimals and confidence is a must. Not because they are difficult to dive but clearing and breathing resistance is different, a jumpy newbie in OW is not want I care to deal with.

Modern BCs for the most part simply do not work with DH regs. To perform at its best a DH reg must be worn low and close to the body, most modern BCs simply will not allow the reg to be properly placed and do not keep the tank/reg close to the body at all times. Most of the "they breath like crap" comments are from improper placement of the regs being dove by inexpereinced DH divers. The one exception is the Zeagle Express Tech and even it needs some modifications to work well. BP/wings do not allow the proper reg positioning, a possible exception is the Freedom plate. I have heard good things about it but as yet had one on. A STA is not acceptable because it lifts the tank off the body. It is quite possible to manage buoyancy with a 5mm and no BC but that is not DH diving 101 and certainly not something I would do on a try DH reg course.

If you are serious about this my best suggestion is for you to get access to a DH reg and an expereinced DH diver, Spend some time UW in one to see if you like it. If you do, get a Phoenix with a ET (Freedom plate??) and spend some time learning the reg yourself before introducing it to others.
I would be happy to come and teach you if you have spare couch - have DH, will travel.

 

[Ed Palma]

I guess it would make it all part of the vintage dive experience if they had to control height in the water column by body angle alone.

Body angle shouldn't change much when you ascend or descend.

 

[Airleron]

Are you saying to dive without a Buoyancy control device of any kind? The only people I can see even wanting to do this would have their buoyancy nailed down tight, but since those people would be in wetsuits (usu 5 mil), they would suffer enough buoyancy swing to need to drop weight/add air at depth.

I guess it would make it all part of the vintage dive experience if they had to control height in the water column by body angle alone.

Exactly, and losing their BCs can be uncomfortable for some divers also. They should be very confident divers.

As Herman states so well, DH and regular BC's don't play well together. When I used my Phoenix for the first time, I used my Mares travel BC. It was OK, I wore my tank super low, but it has no support of any kind for the tank. The reg breathed pretty well under the circumstances, or so I thought. Then I tried a DiveRite Plate.....that went from bad to worse. I had alot of wet breathing, etc. because the plate would not accomodate the DH's position that makes it perform the best. Then I purchased a Freedom plate and voila! It really does work great. Thread a harness through it, attach a tank and you're good to go retro....You can also slap a wing in between the plate and the tank (I do this to jump off boats, so I conform to standards) and now you have a bouyancy device. Being able to add these items is why Phoenix is so great, well...not the only reason it's great...

 

[Nemrod]

Body angle shouldn't change much when you ascend or descend.

You are in the vintage forum where indeed we use body angle to effect our movement through the water. We swim down, we swim around and then we swim back up. We do not have a BC, we swim, we use breath control and weighting techniques that are really no longer taught.

N

 

[Ed Palma]

You are in the vintage forum where indeed we use body angle to effect our movement through the water. We swim down, we swim around and then we swim back up. We do not have a BC, we swim, we use breath control and weighting techniques that are really no longer taught.

N

Oh, I was considering it from a hovering position where just lung power was used. But yes, when swimming, body angle is used.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I saw Freedom Plates mentioned so I need to jump in here for a few updates.
Normally I try not pimp the plate unless summoned because I think it looks tacky, but in this case I need to mention a few things.

First, I am very low, as in one left that actually has a piece of tape on it with a guys name on it and it's being held, but he hasn't gotten back to me with a yes or no for several weeks now so I'm about to let it go to the next inquiry.
It's a welded on rail model. I also have a removable rail model that is my personal plate which I really don't want to sell but I will if I need to. This is the one you want if you are using a Phoenix. The reason being is because the Phoenix adds 3/4" to the can sticking out towards your back so a taller rail needs to be installed to account for this added measurement.
The welded on model does not offer this advantage for the Phoenix but it does get the tank closer to your back and can be used with any non Phoenix model Aqualung with a skinny steel 72.
It's also easier to produce for me because I don't have to drill holes and counter sink the plate for the bolts etc. I also ran into a problem with people thinking the rail was a STA and they were trying to put a wing in between the rail and plate and then were wondering why the holes didn't line up (these weren't vintage or minimalist people BTW). It got to be a nightmare so the rail is now permanently welded on on the standard model to alleviate the mental torture caused to people by trying to figure out wether to place the wing between the rail and plate or rail and tank.
The removable rail will now be be a special order.

To be honest it's going to be a while before I will be able to get another batch of these plates made. The economy sort of dumped a lot of cold water on what was once a hot item.
I got stuck holding a lot of stock after what seemed like a good bet to get my initial investment back. That return never happened with the latest runs. I finally sold out the plates but it was painfully slow and I was left holding the bag with some heafty loans that weren't able to get paid back.
So, for this reason the next run has to be paid for out of pocket up front before I'll do it, and the old loan has to be cleared. This means I will need to supplement the cost through my other business and it also means the runs will be smaller. Just like the Phoenix, the production runs will be small and when their gone their gone until the next one.
Unlike other companies, this is just a side hobby for me. I have a whole other business besides plates.
Plates are just beer money.

 

[Nemrod]

Plates are just beer money.

Sounds like you will be drinking Ripple, lol.

Everybody needs a Freedom Plate, it is the best thing going for scuba, with or without a wing, double or single hose, minimalist or even maximalists!

N

 

[Ed Palma]

... I also have a removable rail model that is my personal plate which I really don't want to sell but I will if I need to...

(emphasis added)

It wouldn't happen to be the nice shiny one in your avatar would it?