Thoughts on double Hose experience dives for customers?

[beanojones]

To me the main issue is no purge button which requires knowledge on how to clear flooded hoses and how regulator breathing characteristics change with body position and buddy breathing.
This knowledge can be obtained from training manuals of the day such as early editions of The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving.
or here in the vintage diver training section

https://backup.filesanywhere.com/fs/Link.aspx

I was having trouble making that link work.

https://backup.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=896b668d5b6172b09c9a

Is that the same place?

 

[Blue Sparkle]

sorry, somehow this made a duplicate of my earlier post

 

[captain]

Edit: I see Gilldiver posted while I was typing
*******
Okay, well, glad I'm not disrupting then

I just learned a little bit about DH regs when Herman put on a small class on them a couple of months ago. The main focus was diving them, but there was an (all too) brief and interesting classroom session before we jumped in (I could have spent a week doing this and it would have been too short).

The way I remember it is that some of the later DH regs have basically the same "guts" as some of our current regs. Thus those new regs are using the same first stages as the DH regs instead of vice versa.

Then there was/is a "banjo" fitting that would allow the use of an SPG, if the DH reg had a long enough yoke to support that (it is shaped sort of like a ring and needs the room to "stack on").

And now there is a Phoenix nozzle, which allows an AAS, and has port(s) for other uses.

I'm sure Herman or one of the other knowledgeable DH divers will correct anything I got wrong; but it is fun for me to try to remember what I learned

I think you pretty much nailed it. The Phoenix is basically a new first stage body (housing) that uses all the original and still current first stage internal parts used by Aqua Lung from the 1960's to the present. It just adds 3 low and 3 high pressure ports and a current heavy duty Aqua Lung yoke and yoke screw as used on current Aqua Lung single hose regulators.
The often stated "new regulator technology" ain't so new.

 

[captain]

I was having trouble making that link work.

https://backup.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=896b668d5b6172b09c9a

Is that the same place?

Same site different pages. The link I posted should take you to the index page. The vintage training info is the fourth from the bottom.
If you see "continue" click it and it will take you to the index page.

 

[Gilldiver]

I think you pretty much nailed it. The Phoenix is basically a new first stage body (housing) that uses all the original and still current first stage internal parts used by Aqua Lung from the 1960's to the present. It just adds 3 low and 3 high pressure ports and a current heavy duty Aqua Lung yoke and yoke screw as used on current Aqua Lung single hose regulators.
The often stated "new regulator technology" ain't so new.

I will add one thing here, a Conshelf DIN adapter will also fit on the Phoenix, but they can be hard to come by.

The one I have for use with my SE2 will add 1" to the distance from the tank valve face to the front of the regulator cans, therefore, I don't use it. But if DIN is holding you back, that is not an issue as long as you have the Conshelf adapter.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I'll add a few more things. There was a regulator that USD put out called the New Mistral which incorporated all the LP and HP ports with a double hose which was attached to the first stage of an already-produced regulator (the Titan, I think). It has also been discontinued, but some may have it. Also, I have a different adaptation for the Aquamaste, called the Mossback Mk III, which incorporates an entire new first stage, along with LP and HP ports. Its production has been suspended due to the economy, but may come back in its current form or a newer version later. Here is a photo of it:

A few potential "gotcha's" that no one has thought about.
First, for surface swimming it is difficult to swim on your back because of the free flow of the double hose regulator. So either planning the dive without surface swimming, or having a snorkel, is necessary. An alternative is to turn off the air for the surface swim, but then there is a potential for getting water into the regulator's boxes too.

Second, to clear the regulator you need to put the non-return in the left side of the mouthpiece down. Then to get the water out of the hose (which with non-returns in the mouthpiece is not completely necessary), it is best to roll to the left while exhaling. This is what the Captain wanted you to read about above.

To make the conversion to a Phoenix Royal Aquamaster (PRA), you need first to have either a Royal Aquamaster or a DA Aquamaster. The conversion is simply for the first stage of that regulator. Which brings up the next "Gotcha." Someone may get "hooked" on double hose diving, and not easily find an Aquamaster to convert. There are currently a couple on EBay to buy, and this is what you want:

US DIVERS AQUA-MASTER DOUBLE HOSE VINTAGE REGULATOR | eBay

There is another, but you probably don't want to try bidding for it as it is a US Navy Anti-magnetic Aquamaster, very collectible and one you do not want to convert to a PRA.

Aqua-Lung DA-Aquamaster Vintage Double Hose Regulator | eBay

It has a beginning bidding price on it, and will probably sell for over $1000 as its interior parts are all gold-plated. With the price of gold lately, I think this will easily top the one-grand mark.

If they are not hooked now, get them a SeawiscopeEY along with the double hose regulator. The regulator will allow very close observation of small fish and invertebrates, and the SeawiscopeEY will allow you to see them close-up. I have met the optomitrist who invented this remarkable device, and would highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in close-up observation of marine life. It is also great for fellows like me who are getting older, and need an optical device with which to observe gauges and watches. Here is a You Tube Video of the Seawiscope; think of it with a double hose regulator and bubbles behind you!

Good luck, and tell us how your Japanese clientele enjoys the double hose.

SeaRat

 

[duckbill]

Pardon me for slightly distracting the thread, but this caught my eye. I thought that it was the opposite, and that certain (modern) single hose regs were using the same first stage that was already a part of some models of original double hose regs.

I was thinking the Phoenix was an addition to the (old, existing) first stage that allowed for adding an AAS/more ports? I could easily be wrong though, so that's why I'm asking.

Blue Sparkle, the 2-stage USD double hose regulators have 1st stages that screw directly into the 2nd (demand) stage. The Phoenix is not an add on to the 1st stage. It is a 1st stage, and screws into the existing 2nd stage in place of the original 1st stage.

Are there any gotchas about having a double hose reg built on a modern first stage that I should know about?

The only "gotcha" of the "Phoenix" over a USD double hose regulator in original configuration is that it is a little longer and may not nestle down into a backpack as low as it should. This is only a concern with some backpacks, and you should really go whole hog and get a reproduction harness from Simonbeans anyway to give the students a truer vintage diving experience. The Phoenix will work fine in a harness.

 

[beanojones]

Thanks for all the responses, this is an education for as well me now. I had thought that there was a 'product' called a Phoenix Royal DA Aquamaster. I am now understanding that the Phoenix product is the first stage, and that while I may find a complete one for sale, I may have to buy a Phoenix, or the Mossback MK III, and then find a DA Aquamaster to screw it on to

Is it a company machining the Phoenix first stages then? Or the Mossback MK III? Or are they being done by guys who are filling the niche left by no companies doing it?

I had the opportunity to buy a Mistral once, but had not had the idea of getting it for customers to use so I never thought about it really. One advantage of the Mistral for use in a rental situation is that US Divers carries overall product liability coverage that might protect me in ways smaller operations might not. I know this has been an issue in the use of even some OEM single hose gear for rental. The reason shops use ScubaPro and not Knockoff Brand X gear in rental is for those liability concerns.

If I went with Mistrals (and not the Phoenix or Mossback) for those liability concerns, what would change from the customer's perspective?

 

[John C. Ratliff]

One "gotcha" of the New Mistral that kept me from buying it is that it is very difficult to use on double tank systems because of the way they link the second stage to the first stage. This is done with a low pressure hose, and that hose gets in the way of mounting the New Mistral onto an older, center post twin tank valve. I have never had a New Mistral in the water, and so have no first-hand experience with it. But I have heard that it is not too good a breathing regulator. The way it is set up on a single tank, there is a significant distance off the back of the diver, which adds hydrostatic pressure from the water column to the breathing resistance. So I would pick the PRA rather than a New Mistral (which probably aren't still available anyway).

The old Mistral by US Divers (before it became Aqualung) was a single stage regulator, and actually is one of my favorite regulators. It can still be bought on EBay, and reconditioned. But there is on potential for a LP fitting with this regulator, and only by getting an extended yolk could you use it with a pressure gauge and a banjo fitting. Some people bought J-valves, and simply used the Mistral with the J-valve (myself included). Others used a SPG on the valve (Dacor valves are good for that).

SeaRat

 

[Ed Palma]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the old DA AM nozzle with a new Phoenix nozzle.

As you can see, it adds 3 LP and 3 HP ports, as well as a thicker yoke for higher tank pressures with just a minimal addition to the length of the nozzle.