thoughts on an open water diver in a technical diving forum

[Hodg]

I think there is a reasonable concern that a recreational diver may read a few posts in the tech diving forum and convince themself that they now know enough about tech diving to go out and do it without proper training. Many open water divers have gotten themselves into situations that were well beyond their ability to manage because they thought they knew enough. In reality, we don't know what we don't know, which is why proper training is so important.

I actually remember the post where you got the negative comments, and remember being a bit surprised that people seemed convinced you were going to go out and do that dive despite your caveats that it was just a thought experiment. That said, I do think it comes from a place of concern, even if it comes off as unnecessarily harsh. Personally, I appreciate theoretical questions/thought experiments in the forum, just know that reading comprehension isn't everybody's strong suit and you may have to wade through snarky replies.

 

[Alekseolsen]

Seems nobody have mentioned Cunninghams law yet, which I'd say is among the best explanations as to why this happens

"the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."

Cunningham's Law - Meta

meta.m.wikimedia.org

 

[L13]

Seems nobody have mentioned Cunninghams law yet, which I'd say is among the best explanations as to why this happens

"the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."

Cunningham's Law - Meta

meta.m.wikimedia.org

I need an alt account just for this!

 

[rddvet]

I think there is a reasonable concern that a recreational diver may read a few posts in the tech diving forum and convince themself that they now know enough about tech diving to go out and do it without proper training. Many open water divers have gotten themselves into situations that were well beyond their ability to manage because they thought they knew enough. In reality, we don't know what we don't know, which is why proper training is so important.

I actually remember the post where you got the negative comments, and remember being a bit surprised that people seemed convinced you were going to go out and do that dive despite your caveats that it was just a thought experiment. That said, I do think it comes from a place of concern, even if it comes off as unnecessarily harsh. Personally, I appreciate theoretical questions/thought experiments in the forum, just know that reading comprehension isn't everybody's strong suit and you may have to wade through snarky replies.

I tend to not answer procedural questions to untrained divers. It likely makes no difference since everything can be found on the internet. But we had the father/underaged son here not far from my house who both died in eagles nest and neither had any technical certs. My understanding is they learned stuff on youtube. So unfortunately we won’t stop the issue but I stil, answer cautiously to avoid contributing to someone’s death

 

[kaylee_ann]

@kaylee_ann , I am a fully recreational diver (and instructor) and I did never feel the need to step up to technical diving.
I often post in tech diving forum as many interesting topics are discussed there, I learned a lot, and often I posted my experiences about deco diving, narcosis, oxygen toxicity, etc.
Here in Europe the boundary between recreational and tech is much higher than in US.
My CMAS recreational certification allows me to dive (and to teach diving) down to 50m max and with multiple deco stops. It even includes using CC rebreathers at shallow depth (10 m max in pure oxygen).
So often topics are discussed in the tech forum which are not really "tech" for our standards.
Although I am explicitely a pure recreational diver, usually my posts in the tech forum do not cause any significant harsh responses. Sometimes other users do not agree with me, but this is normal on any forum.
Also consider that if a written text contains allusions, humour, sarcasm or satirical content, it can be easily misunderstood.

Ahh, I am a very sarcastic person, though I don't remember if I was that way in tech diving conversations. It's possible.

Face to face communication is more easily conveying these effects.
I see that some people write with a style which easily triggers hate and harsh responses.
Others, as me, use a style which results more polite and accomodating, so even when I post something wrong, I get corrected and educated politely.
As it appears that you have encountered an anomalously large number of harsh responses, you should evaluate if this is due to your writing style.

This would make sense, actually; it'd explain why generally I deal with more online arguments than in person. There have been times I've fought with very good friends (that know me in person!) because they misunderstood what I typed. But we almost never would argue in person because we accurately understood each other.
I tend to be really honest on how I feel, which can cause issues when it comes off as mean.

 

[kaylee_ann]

I'd say there's no issue with an OW diver asking questions. My addendums to that are a few. Ask questions, and if something doesn't make sense ask. Feel free to do your own research and retort to someone's answer in an inquisitive manner. Don't be argumentative. You may be completely right, but you may be wrong as there may be more to the story than your current knowledge base. The problem is as an OW diver if you argue a point too much here the question will either get derailed or you'll just be ignored for being an "annoying OW diver." Don't take what you read here as gospel. There are many ways to skin a cat. Some are taught and are in books, some are just things developed out of necessity that don't necessarily get taught. There is alot of good information here. There's also alot of misinformation.
Just because someone has alot of technical dives doesn't make them a good technical diver. There are some absolutely atrocious divers doing some serious technical dives regularly. They're only still alive because of luck. A technical cert doesn't mean someone's a proficient tech diver. I took fundies a couple years ago. The class was almost derailed by a guy who was an OW instructor (up to the point he taught an/dp and more advanced classes). He had no buoyancy control, had never used a butt dump on any of his wings and couldn't understand how to use it, and generally was a horrific diver. He had to be removed from class and asked to work on basic OW skills with another GUE instructor who was co-teaching.
Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Yeah, I try not to assume whatever my interpretation of what I read is correct. But when someone replies, gets irritated and says the real answer is something way off the wall, I just get annoyed

Generally, I'd think technical divers are extremely good divers, like as close to perfection with skills as you can get- but some instructors just do not care. If you can do the skills, no matter what it looks like, congrats! Here's your tech card. It's heavily prevalent with OW/AOW, sadly I guess it is in tech too

 

[kaylee_ann]

I think there is a reasonable concern that a recreational diver may read a few posts in the tech diving forum and convince themself that they now know enough about tech diving to go out and do it without proper training. Many open water divers have gotten themselves into situations that were well beyond their ability to manage because they thought they knew enough. In reality, we don't know what we don't know, which is why proper training is so important.

I actually remember the post where you got the negative comments, and remember being a bit surprised that people seemed convinced you were going to go out and do that dive despite your caveats that it was just a thought experiment. That said, I do think it comes from a place of concern, even if it comes off as unnecessarily harsh. Personally, I appreciate theoretical questions/thought experiments in the forum, just know that reading comprehension isn't everybody's strong suit and you may have to wade through snarky replies.

yeahhhhh. the problem also is, people like that tend to have an idea set in stone in their mind. so no matter how many times I say I'm not going to try it "in the real world", they won't believe me. then others read their reply, and think oh yeah, dude's got a point- they don't bother reading my post.

now maybe if I asked how to do a gas switch, how to tie a dive guide line, or in what order you force your equipment through to get through a tight space in a cave? yeah, I expect people to tell me to F off. but pure theory? ehhh. it's not as easy to directly translate that into a deco dive because there are several (physical) skills involved that have to be learned in-person. or at least it seems that way from what I've heard about tech training/diving

 

[rddvet]

Generally, I'd think technical divers are extremely good divers, like as close to perfection with skills as you can get-

You would think that, but I have sadly learned its far from true. One of the most famous cave instructors in the world puts out horrific students nowadays. He was warned 10-12 years ago by a group of instructors and former students that there were some issues, but he didn't listen. He's actually still teaching now and I firsthand have seen his students in the water. We're talking about people coming out of cave and technical classes with barely a frog kick. Some instructors are past their prime, some just don't give a crap and want the money, but even more commonly are instructors passing students with subpar skills based on the assumption that they're "good enough" and someone else will "work out the kinks in the next class."

 

[kaylee_ann]

You would think that, but I have sadly learned its far from true. One of the most famous cave instructors in the world puts out horrific students nowadays. He was warned 10-12 years ago by a group of instructors and former students that there were some issues, but he didn't listen. He's actually still teaching now and I firsthand have seen his students in the water. We're talking about people coming out of cave and technical classes with barely a frog kick. Some instructors are past their prime, some just don't give a crap and want the money, but even more commonly are instructors passing students with subpar skills based on the assumption that they're "good enough" and someone else will "work out the kinks in the next class."

what??? there are some tech divers who've suggested to me I should learn a frog kick now to avoid silting up things, damaging coral etc. nothing to do with tech. that's so weird that it isn't something rec divers do too, never mind tech certified ones!
pretty sure the dead diver's family members can go out and sue the instructor, I think I've heard of a few cases like that. good enough isn't enough for some of the most dangerous diving you can do beyond saturation diving (in commercial diving)

 

[admikar]

A lot of good answers here.
Just keep asking, no one can stop you from doing that.