Thoughts about scuba instructors.

[Liquid]

And still those 2.5 days courses in Thailand, Curcao and other places go on, becouse a PADI instructor can work completly alone, and actualy do what he wants. I have seen the products of these courses. Very poor divers, that are usualy also quite unsafe in the water. The Q/A is not a solution, becouse a new diver has no idea as how he is suposed to be instructed. It may tell about a bad treatment a student recived, but nothing much more than that.

As for instructors obliged to report- Like I said, a PADI instructor can work completly alone. I agree that most probobly won't misusee this, but still, it's a large hole that invites breaking.

 

[The Chairman]

Having received one of these Quality Assurance questionaires when I finished my DM, I have to disagree with you Liquid. They ask very specific questions as to which skills you did and how they were accomplished, and then they even list some that are not a part of the normal course. They know if you are answering blindly, and there were no "open-ended" questions, like did your instructor know what in hell was going on... I could tell by reading the questions that it was far more than a token measure to assure standarization. If they do this with the OW as well, then they should really have a good handle on who does what and how!

Of course, this was a great way to blackmail my insructor... :tease:

 

[Liquid]

Doc,
It might be so with DM courses. But still, with o/w, even if you have specific questions, it can't say a lot about the instructor when the answer comes from someone that his instructor was the first touch he had with scuba. I may be wrong here, but I can not belive that a 2-2.5 days course stands to PADIs standards!?
Am I wrong and it's ok?

In that case, I dont really know what to say, beside that it's very wrong to work this way. I can tell you that were I worked, when someone with a PADI certificate, from an exotic location came, we ususaly were very sceptic about his diving abilitys, and many times we were right to be sceptic. Most people there, luckily joined guided dives (it was a part of a good tourist deal) that were usualy led by instructors rather than DMs. I can't begin to tell how many problems we had from such dives.

 

[Butch103]

Liquid this is what I was referring too. However your further explanaition is right on.............


Butch eace:

 

[captdave]

After reading the thread about diving uncertified and your current discussion I just had to put my two cents in.

The difference between a scuba instructor and an experienced diver is large..An instructor has been taught how to deal with problems and how to solve them..Common student problems is a very important aspect of their training. Divers only know there own problems and cannot relate to the general public problems..

Teaching a child to dive by a parent is a criminal offence in my state..Anybody who does this would be jailed. Child protective service would probably remove the child from such an irresponsible parent.

An organized training program involves a lot the general students are not awair of..There are first aid kits and properly trained people to administer treatment..Oxygen is avaivable in the case of a problem..I don't think an average diver would have these preparation avaiable..

If you check the stastics of diving accidents and deaths those diving uncertified die a lot and those taking people out to just show them some stuff kill a lot of people.

If your scuba course seemed quickly administered to you it is because you had no problems..I guarantee you not everybody in the class found it so easy....Plus you probably chose the least expensive course avaiable in your area..Think about it..IS there a reason some instructors command more money than others?

There are different levels of instructors..
a basic instructor has taught less than 150 students

a master instructor has taught more than 150 students

a master diver instructor is a master instructor who has
qualified to teach an additional 5 specialty courses.

an instructor trainer is a master diver trainer who is also certified to teach instructors.

Instructor Examiner is a instructor trainer that also is certified to administer the exams to instructor candidates.

after that there is scuba god..the ceo of the certification agency..

When you are looking for an instructor you need to question the type and rating of the instructor..

even a 90 day wonder is more qualified to teach scuba than the average and excellent diver because he has been taught how to teach scuba not just how to dive...

Standards of training have been establised by the Recreational Scuba Training counsil that is attended by all of the major agencies..This precisely lists all of the necessary skills that must be taught. Instructors must qualify in all of these standards or they are not graduated.
I assure you the course to become an instructor is not an easy one..

a good diver has no idea of the specific standards and therefore cannot teach all of the necessary information...

Most dive masters are what we call Sophmoric..In latin this means wise fool. Excellent divers are worse when it comes to the knowledge necessary to teach scuba.

Frankly I am sickened by the irresponsible advise in this thread.

After certifying over 2000 divers and dozens of dive masters and dozens of Instructors.. I can tell you most of Dive Masters and Instructor candidates were really good divers but didn't know squat about instructing scuba untill there training..There is a big difference between a scuba instructor and a school teacher.

When you have a scuba instructor you put your life in there hands.

Sincerely,
Captain Dave
Padi master Instructor
IDEA Instructor trainer
Idea Instructor Examiner
Explo Sub Instructor Trainer
CMAS International Instructor
Public Safety Instructor Trainer.
Nitrox Instructor and Blender

 

[Lost Yooper]

Dave,

It sure sounded like you said one needs to be an instructor to know how to deal with and solve problems.

I'm really holding a lot back here, Dave.

Are you sure about that?

Mike

PADI Scuba God? Hmmm.

 

[captdave]

Hi,
What I am saying is that in the instruction environment when teaching students only Instructors have been taught how to deal with common student problems..The average diver learns how to handle problems sure. This is for their safety and the buddys safety..One does not learn the other stuff untill they take the instructor course..Not to say the average diver is stupid they are just ignorant..

Look. when ever you go on a dive trip you find a few people you wonder how they got certified...You assume a bad instructor..maybe but more than likely they passed all of the minimum requirements and by standards the instructor had to certify them..I have had to certify peoply I didn't want to but I was forced to by standards..They passed the course..Then let a little time into the equation they go on a dive trip and bam...
Your certification really is a license to learn how to dive. If you think a certified diver is a diver your wrong..This comes with experience and more training. I always ask my students to take the advanced course as soon as possible for them to gain the added experience and training ..This is what makes them good divers....

Don't hold back buddy..I am x Navy I can take it..Give me both barrels and will sort it out.

 

[Butch103]

before......re AOW as soon as possible and it goes without saying that there was a lot of discussion pro and con. I agree CaptDave that the AOW gives you a lot more "experience" than the OW. I think it is a misnomer and
would be more accurate to be called "OW II". This is my limited experience. Your credentials speak for themself, you are far more the experienced diver I may ever be.

I bring up this next point because I believe it applies........ you state (paraphrasing) that an instructor is more qualified to teach diving than a more expeerienced diver, solely based on the fact that they have been taught to look for "danger signs" in students ( I am not sure how to word that last statement) or be perhaps more observant to problems than the experienced diver would be. ( If I interpreted this wrong, please advise). You also made the statement that the certified diver is just beginning the learning curve and over time they will learn how to dive.

My point (long winded as it is) is this as does the instructor. The instructor now has his/her new instructor cert.........whooo hoooo, but they also are just learning how to instruct. They know the "basics" of instruction and obviously more than the basics of diving.

I would and am inspiring to become an instructor (even in my late stage of life (only 40) butstill not a young chicken anymore). But it rubs me the wrong way when it is implied by some ( and I am not pointing a finger at anyone) that the instructor ishe be all end all. Instructors can all learn from all divers. Personally I have learnt more of the finer details of diving including various hints from many of you long(er) term divers onthis board.

And CaptDave, if as you alluded to on another thread that one can make a comfortable living as a dive instructor, it makes one think a little longer of becomeing a good instructor.

And in the words of Forrest Gump "Thats about all I have tosay about that"

Thanks for the informative comments CaptDave.

Butch eace

 

[captdave]

Ok Butch..
Sounds like you will make a good instructor..I suggest you come over to the other thread and check out how to make real money as a scuba instructor..
I just want to restate what I said earlier..No matter how good a diver you are or how much you have learned from other divers..There is a lot more to be learned in the technique of teaching scuba..This only comes with your instructor training..There are a lot of good scuba instructors and I think the best ones are the onew who took the time to become a master scuba diver with lots of experience under their belt.But again this does not prepare one to teach scuba..I want you to take your instructor course and then let me know what you think!

 

[Lost Yooper]

Hey Dave,

If you're talking about your average open water diver, I probably agree with you. I would argue that an experienced technical diver should be quite capable of handling any scenario that a recreational instructor is likely (or unlikely) to face. I would also argue that a tech diver should, in fact, have more discipline, diving skill, knowledge, and task loading ability than your average recreational instructor. So, by that notion, the only thing needed to be learned is the personnality/communication skills that are involved in the instructors program -- which seem naturally found in many people.

Take care.

Mike

PS. I am in no way saying that a technical diver should be handed an instructor's card, but rather am suggesting that simply having a certification doesn't necessarily reflect the mastering of diving skill, knowledge, or the ability to be a good teacher.