Thoughts about scuba instructors.

[rstone]

First off since im pretty busy i dont post very much so none of you really know me so before i reply to this ill just point out im a PADI IDC Staff Instructor. As being we are talking about what it takes to be a good instructor ill add my 2 cents worth...

First off let me just say i agree with some of what was said.. BUT.. you know that was coming huh?! .. As far as instructing experience.. and i dont relate this just to diving, but everything in life.. "you get what you pay for", meaning a diver or instructor can have all the dives in the world and if he was taught poorly or trained poorly with bad habits he will only continue to do so until shown how to do it correctly by someone who is properly trained. Ive seen many instructors who shouldnt be instructors and ive seen some excellent instructors who are excellent role models.

Sure we have all had bad teachers who couldnt teach a class if there life depended on it.. not because they didnt know the information.. but because the approach they took aka presention of the information provided. I cant speak for other agencies but as for PADI we do grade them on there presentations as does PADI examiners to make sure they know how to present the information given to them.

Butch103 "90 day wonders"?? umm uhh ya.. ok sure.. whatever u say..

Butch.. have you been to a IDC?? its really interesting to see what really is involved in training instructors.. Ive helped train many instructors at a CDC and let me tell you first hand that if you dont even know the basics of diving you dont belong there..and you will FAIL!

for those of you who dont really knows what we do at the IDC's it is to turn what they should of already been taught as a divemaster and fine tune there dive skills to demonstration quality in a SAFE and effective manner. They get scored on Supervison (did they keep eye contact with all there students, did they position the students and themselves in a safe manner, did they use there assistant in a safe and effective manner, did they position themselves in a way they could help a student having a problem quickly, and the list goes on).. they are scored on there rescue ability, and how well they can do the basic skills themself, and of course on there academic presentation abilities and knowledge of dive theory.. Does all this make them a good instructor? yes ONLY if taught properly and they apply what they learned at the IDC and take that with them to the classroom, pool, o/w. Does that mean with there first class they are going to be excellent instructors? probably not.. since being in the real world is different then a controlled environment and only that can come with experience.. but that doesnt make them BAD instructors either.

As for a apprenticeship.. they are only as good as the instructors they work under. Meaning if your working under a bad instructor you will only learn bad habits. I think there is something else worth mentioning here.. Remember that most instructors work under a dive shop, there is not only pressure from the agencies to perform up to standards but also what i like to call store politics who state how they are to be ran. Most instructors who work at shops dont make those decisions on how classes are ran. They are told when they take place and where.. and they have to make do with what they are given under the time constrants placed on them by these shops and the locations they are been given regardless if its a ideal environment to learn in (which usally has to do with money). Ive seen this many times and i know instructors fear speaking up for fear of losing there jobs or being outcasted in there own shop. Does that mean they should violate standards? of course not.. but it does create bad learning when instructors dont have the time to teach properly or give the student the time they should be given..

Mike the discount/free thing has nothing to do with the quality of that instructor.. its like airlines who offer other airline employee's reduced or free tickets because some day one of there people might need the same thing from them.. also its because some places feel that if you give a instructor a discount/free ride they might bring them more business since sometimes it is the instructor who recommends a site or dive boat to charter for there dive shop.

Your right mike a cert doesnt necessarily make you a good instructor after all you may have had bad training.. and a diver with excellent skills and knowledge may be a excellent diver but i beg to differ on him being a better instructor.. It takes more then just knowledge and skills to be a good instructor aka like how to properly supervise students, what techniques are good for maintaining a safe control over a student if something should go wrong, how to effectively use a assistant, or give a presentation, etc.. it only takes a split seconds for hell to brake loose and only a few more for some student to seriously be injured.. he may be a more experienced diver but he sure as hell isnt experienced in dealing with new students.

That isnt to say experienced divers have nothing to contribute to a instructor.. experience is always worth something.. and a instructor or diver who thinks he knows everything is a accident waiting to happen. Enough said for 1 night..

 

[Liquid]

Rstone,
I totaly agree with almost everything you said there.

About aperenticeship-
In the shop where I worked, the policy was that every new instructor must have 2 aperenticeships, under the best instructor of the shop. The first one, he only watches, the second one he has complete control, only there's still another instructor there to see that everything's ok, and maibe to assist if needed. I will add here, also, that when new instructors where assigned to aperenticeship with me, I'd tell them to take a slate, write down the names of all the divers, including myself, than write below the names anything they saw that theyr though is wrong or worth mentioning. After every session, I'd take them aside go over our slates (I have one the same), and discuss it. Now the law here requires four aperenceships, to be served, before teaching a course alone. I belive it is a vey good idea.

BTW-I belive in SSI the requirments are more or less the same as in PADI, only the scoring system is a bit different (I think with you it's 1-5 points and with us 4-12 points).

 

[rstone]

Well im not knocking apprenticeships.. i think they would be a very good idea if they are done by a GOOD instructor, as for new instructors.. you wont find a dive shop here in florida that would let a new instructor in the water with students ALONE.. without first having another experienced instructor be present to make sure they can show they know how to run a class as well as being there for advice if needed.

Yes, with PADI we score 1-5 at the IDC but its more like 1.1 1.2 1.3 ... 4.9 5.0 etc.. and also if anything was done unsafely no matter what there score is they get a failing 1.

 

[g2]

Hi All -

Just to let you know, there's probably a lot of us who may not be posting to these type of threads but read them avidly because we find them very informative. The controversy gives us insight into the issues surrounding student instruction. You can help us by continuing to discuss this stuff!

Some background... I am a PADI divemaster, and have remained so for about 9 years. Why didn't I go for my IDC? Three reasons: 1) it seems like instructors have all the responsibility and none of the fun )comments?); 2) I had no respect for instructors who didn't have any practical experience, and I refused to be one too until I *did*; and 3) like Turnerjd said in the "PADI IE - Right wing instructor thoughts" thread, I became a divemaster and somehow grew a brain.

My thoughts since then have focused on the fact that PADI (just as an example) has a very commercial aspect to it -- instructors seem to be encouraged to promote diving, more training, and the purchase of equipment. Understandably, dive shops love this! Other agencies may be forced to follow suit if they are to survive, so I don't really make a distinction between PADI and any other agency. But as a potential instructor, I want to teach because I like diving and I want to share it with people, not because I want to market goods. Thus I have remained a DM until I can resolve this dilemma.

Your discussions in this thread and others, regarding what it takes to be a good instructor (and good certification agency), are helpful.

One thing has bubbled to the surface now...

When a non-diver goes to their LDS, they assume the instructors are competent and capable of teaching safe diving practices. Non-divers really have no expertise or basis to judge the qualifications of an instructor, other than personality -- which may or may not have anything to do with the instructor's ability to teach. So the non-diver has to assume that the certification agency has done a good job when they certified the instructor.

So the onus of ensuring instructor competence falls on the agency, and maybe the dive shop to a lesser extent.

Fooks has suggested that an apprenticeship program may solve some of this, and I kind of like that idea. Like many of you have noted, however, my experience has also been that the number of dives often has no relevance to the quality of the diver (or instructor).

So, assuming that apprenticeship may solve some problems but not all, what else can a certification agency do to make sure their instructors are competent?

Cheers,

g2

 

[Butch103]

please do not misconstrue what I am saying.....It has been indicated in previous threads that one can become an instructor very quickly. I understand the course required, dive time (read number of dives) required to become an instructor. The "90 day wonder" term I have questioned in the past and was advise it was, I believe, if memory serves an armed forces term for some new officers.

Liquid in his statement eluded to the fact that no one could teach until they went thru the instructors course. My only challange to that statement (which I paraphrased) was that because of someones education does not necessarily make the a teacher. They are qualified to teach, no doubt about it. I understand that some if not all organizations require extensive training to instruct and become an instructor in name only.

I agree with your an Liquids philosophy that an apprenticeship is appropriate.

As it stands now I believe and if I am wrong please corrrect me, that in PADI you can start day one OW and advance reasonably quickly. Someone in another thread explained that if you dove a liveaboard in between courses you could speed up the process.

I am not knocking any instructors on tis board or anywhere else for that matter. I can only comment on my own personal experiences. But one cannot :nono: make the broad statement that Liquid made regarding an instructor.

I have the upmost respect for those who have dedicated their time energy and money to become instructors.

Their only satisfaction (beside a few bucks of pocket money) is that of successfully helping their students become competant divers.

Butch eace:

 

[Mr.Bubbles]

I though that Dive Master was a type of apprenticeship.

 

[miked]

Butch,
Your explanation for the "90 day wonder " reference is right on the money. My Uncle, a WWII vet,told me, long ago, that phrase was used to describe "new" officers, rushed through training and onto the front lines.

You are also correct about education not guaranteeing ability to teach. As a HS teacher for 30+ years, the phrase we use is "certified doesn't necessarily mean qualified."
take care,
Miked

 

[Liquid]

Though I doubt if i succeed.
Few things:

-First of all, I am really happy I posted this thread, becouse there are some really great issues being discussed, here, and gets more and more interesting.

-I think the first thing I am going to do after this message
Is writeing one about instructor-ethics. I think the issue was brought up, unintentionaly, by g2.

-rstone, what you say about florida is aperenticeship actualy, and it should be made all around...

-g2, about the none diver looking for a course: This is a good issue. Infact, in dive shop I worked for, there was an instructor that really sucked. He didnt dive to well, and, ahm, he was stupid, so he talked rubbish here and there. The fact is, though, that since he's a nice person, most of his students thought he was good, and really liked him. He was kicked after a short while. There is only one way to try to make sure you are going to a good instructo (and that also is not 100% proof): Check with friends that do dive about shops they recomend. Go first, with a friend that dives, that can later give you his opinion. In israel it's quite easy becouse half the country here dives, but i think it should be easy also in the US or any other place for that reason.

Butch-a question-what do you mean by "But one cannot make the broad statement that Liquid made regarding an instructor."?

If what you ment is that i said that the instructor course makes alwais good instructors, it is not so. There are bad instructors, I am quite aware of it. What I ment was, that like someone that wants to drive a car needs a license, so he can prove that he knows how to do it, the same is with instructors. There must be some kind of way to check it, and to test them, like driving test.

-Regulating: Someone here brought the point of regulating instructors. In SSI every center must have a quality control person. usualy the most senior instructor that must supervise, and counsel the other, more junior instructors, and make sure they work up to standards. With PADI it is not possible, becouse PADI is an organizations of instructors that can work free-lance. Also in israel there is a small authority that makes sure everybody works up to standards, no matter what agency (read my thread "recreational divng law").

OKOKOKOK
that's it.

 

[rstone]

Mr.Bubbles.. there is 2 options for taking the divemaster program.. 1 is a internship(apprenticeship so to speak) which if done properly takes about 6 - 12 months to complete. Its a great experience if done properly while allowing you to interact directly with new students in the pool, and o/w. Its also a good time to take note of how the instructor does his job. Its also best if you have a chance to work under more then 1 instructor to see the differnent styles and teaching methods used by those instructors. If a instructor uses his dmc effectively it can be a rewarding experience.. however there alot of instructors who dont make good use of there dmc's and dont train them how to do the things that divemasters CAN DO (like demonstrate skills)and therefore are nothing more then what i call a dive caddy hauling tanks around, and learning nothing.

cer·ti·fed 1 : to attest authoritatively: as to attest as being true or as represented or as meeting a standard.

qual·i·fied 1 a : fitted (as by training or experience) for a given purpose : competent b : having complied with the specific requirements.

well being a HS teacher for 30+ years id say your wrong according to websters dictionary.. then again i never did like HS.. although i do agree with you Mike about education not guaranteeing ability to teach but i already went over all that.

Butch in theory could get thru courses fairly quickly if you went diving alot however you would still need to wait 6 months min to start a IDC, however if you didnt take the time to learn properly your going to have problems at the IDC. The last IDC i did we had 3-4 people drop out because they just couldnt get it. Not everyone is meant to be a instructor and some just shouldnt be. i believe the problem starts when they enter the dive shop and those bad instructors who are there mentors because they are the senior instructors there start telling them how they should run the class or they see these bad instructors violating standards and getting away with it so they do it to and of course the pressure of the store environment at alot of shops breeds this since the store is in it for the money and will want to spend as little as possible to get the most out of it and as you probably know instructors dont get paid very well by the stores so this also breeds bad instructors to do as little as possible. Does that mean all dive shops are like that? of course not just like not all instructors are bad. What i would like to see is the agencies take a more active role in the stores that represent them and a union wouldnt hurt either for instructors..

 

[SubMariner]

Liquid, you stated: "Regulating: Someone here brought the point of regulating instructors. In SSI every center must have a quality control person. usualy the most senior instructor that must supervise, and counsel the other, more junior instructors, and make sure they work up to standards. With PADI it is not possible, becouse PADI is an organizations of instructors that can work free-lance."

This is not accurate. It is the duty of every PADI Instructor, from OWSI to CD, to report violations of standards, unsafe diving practices, etc to their Local Area Office (or PADI International, PADI HQ). An Instructor who fails to do so will be in serious trouble themselves, as they will be sanctioned by PADI.

Other things PADI does in "Quality Assurance":

- randomly includes QA Surveys with the certification cards they send to divers.
- respond directly to complaints from divers, Instructors, et al.
- Instructors must sign an annual contract with PADI indicating that they will abide by & follow PADI standards & procedures.
- Instructors who are not "in status" or "current" must attend re-training in order to be able to teach again. Or, in response to a complaint from another Instructor or student, they may also be required to undergo re-training.
- PADI publishes a list of Instructors who are no longer members, are suspended, undergone retraining or other Quality Assurance procedures.

~SubMariner~