This came by the shop today

[captain]

I don't collect anything other than dust but I tend to agree that they should stay as is in a collection.
I had the opportunity in 1968 as a US Divers dealer to buy a Cousteau 25th Anniversary Golden Aqua Master of which I believe only 200 were made. I didn't because I felt it was something to collect and display, not dive and I would have been tempted to dive it.

 

[Greg Barlow]

From a collector's perspective, and being a big fan of the Voit 50 Fathom, I would likely leave the equipment in its current state. As is, even with the deterioration, the gear is NIB. How many other 51 year old regulators are in such condition?

In my own meager collection of Voit 50 Fathom regs, the equipment would be prominentlly displayed.

I have six different 50 Fathom regs that I have rebuilt. Four of the six are used regularly, and are fitted with reproduction parts from vintagedoublehose.com and thescubamuseum.com

I owned a Voit Trieste II that was purchased in the factory sealed box. I kept it in my collection for a few years and never placed it on a cylinder valve. Sadly, in a moment of ignorance, I sold it for a $300 profit to a fellow collector.

Nah...If that gear arrived at my place, it would remain as is...

Greg

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Indeed.

It strikes me that right now, as these regs sit (undiveable) NIB, they are the ultimate reference for rebuilding other regulators of the same model, designing replacement rubber goods, and generally for anything that isn't covered in to original manuals.


All the best, James

James,

You are assuming that these regulators were placed in the best orientation to allow best breathing characteristics. This is not true with the Voit 50 Fathom. I have written about that on a different forum:

--The AMF Voit 50 Fathom had the wrong venturi aimed down the hoses, or aimed at the back of the case. With the large hole aimed down the intake hose, it breaths about like a RAM.

But to get the best performance of that regulator, you need to re-orient the top box. This means drilling a different orientation hole in the box for the dowel pin. So in order to have this regulator breath to its optimum ability, you need to open it up, reorient things, drill a hole, etc. This would mar the finish, and probably decrease its value as a collectible. It would be better to get the reproduction plastic Blue 50 Fathom boxes if a diver has the inner stage, and make one than destroy these (probably irreplacable) NIB regulators. Here is the link.

Also, these regulators are said to have no serial numbers. Dan Barringer at Vintage Scuba Supply found that the serial numbers on some of these are on a tag inside the bottom box. Of course, to see the serial numbers, you would have to disassemble the regulator.
SeaRat

 

[Greg Barlow]

James,

You are assuming that these regulators were placed in the best orientation to allow best breathing characteristics. This is not true with the Voit 50 Fathom. I have written about that on a different forum:


Also, these regulators are said to have no serial numbers. Dan Barringer at Vintage Scuba Supply found that the serial numbers on some of these are on a tag inside the bottom box. Of course, to see the serial numbers, you would have to disassemble the regulator.

SeaRat

SeaRat,

While I agree with you about the 50 Fathom breathing better with the larger venturi hole oriented toward the inhalation horn, your reasoning for Voit doing so is somewhat flawed in my opinion.

You have written in the past that Voit choose to do so because they did not want a lower priced model to outperform the Voit Navy. The Navy was not introduced on the market until the year after the 50 Fathom was discontinued. The VR-1 Sportsman was sold during part of the time that the VCR-2 was on the market. A well tuned VR-1 typically will outperform a VCR-2 when the cylinder pressure is below 1,300psi or so. Above that pressure, the downstream design will generally exhibit a lower work-of-breathing score.

The VR-2 Mariner was not cataloged during the same time frame as the VCR-2. Even if it were, the DA design was never known as an easy breathing reg.

Gagnan developed the downstream system in an attempt to "solve" the primary weakness of the Mistral design, that being a fairly small orifice. While the Mistral is an outstanding design, only so much gas can flow through such a small opening. While it is true that Cousteau's team used the Mistral to depths of approximately 400fsw, they were using heliox mixes. The appropriate gas mixture for such a dive would have the same density as air at a depth of less than 120fsw. I've personally used a Mistral valve at 150ffw (on air), and you have to work at each inhalation. I've also used a downstream valve at the same general depth, and found it to be a bit easier. Of course, at that depth on air, I wouldn't completely trust my judgment...

As far as a serial number tag goes, I've rebuilt more than 25 VCR-2 regs over the years, and have yet to find such a tag. I don't have the experience that Dan does, but I have worked on a few that appeared to have never been serviced.

Also, I do not drill an additional hole in the top can. I merely orient the opening of the circlip toward the inhalation horn and then apply 60-100 inch pounds of measured torque to the yoke retainer nut. That way, the owner can glance at the circlip and immediately tell if the regulator's valve body has moved from the proper setting. Again, yes, the reg does have markedly better venturi action with the body oriented in that fashion.

Greg

 

[elmer fudd]

I'd just let economics determine this one. Obviously, at some price point you reach a level where it's foolish to use something for fear of damaging it. I wouldn't take a pristine Long Land Pattern Brown Bess out to the range even if I was fairly sure it was safe to do so. What would be gained by it? I could use a Pedersoli or even an Indian replica instead and learn virtually everything about their firing behavior without the risk of damaging a valuable piece of history. Same thing with these Voits. Diving with them would be purely a matter of bling. They're not going to function much differently than other double hoses. I believe the Aqualung Mistral is mechanically identical.

I'm not really sure these are at that price point yet. They're getting there though, especially when you consider that replacing the hoses and other rubber parts on one reg will drive the price up $150 or so. Still lots of people spend $1000 on modern regulators and that's probably about what one of these in rebuilt condition will go for when all is said and done. If somebody did buy them for diving I certainly wouldn't see any problem with that.

For me though, their value would detract from their practicality when it comes to diving.

 

[broxton coalition]

there is a market for EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING is collectible nowdays. Just be patient and you will find the buyer. Vintage voit scuba+vintage voit cardboard=good$$$$$$$
with proper cleanup and new hose, these are great items for a museum display.
pretty cool to see these items surface. they are still out there.
:fro:

 

[Greg Barlow]

Same thing with these Voits. Diving with them would be purely a matter of bling. They're not going to function much differently than other double hoses. I believe the Aqualung Mistral is mechanically identical.

I'm not really sure these are at that price point yet. They're getting there though, especially when you consider that replacing the hoses and other rubber parts on one reg will drive the price up $150 or so. Still lots of people spend $1000 on modern regulators and that's probably about what one of these in rebuilt condition will go for when all is said and done. If somebody did buy them for diving I certainly wouldn't see any problem with that.

For me though, their value would detract from their practicality when it comes to diving.

The USD Mistral is actually a completely different system. The Mistral is an upstream design; where the soft seat is pushed against the volcano orifice while the reg is pressurized, and unpressurized as well. When the diver inhales, the pressure differential forces the diaphragm inward. This action causes the two levers to ultimately force the hard and soft seats to separate. You might be thinking of the Voit V-22 Polaris 50, and the V-55 Blue 50 Fathom. Those two regs use a variation of the Mistral design. It is actually an improvement in my opinion.

The downstream system is nearly identical mechanically to a modern, unbalanced second stage. Here, the incoming pressure is attempting the force the two seats to separate. Spring tension prevents the valve from opening until the diaphragm's deflection causes the mechanism to operate.

Even before the economy went sour, a repainted, rebuilt VCR-5 would typically bring between $450-600. The last two repainted examples that I am aware of went for under $500, and that is with all new silicone parts. The price on Voits, along with most other VDH regs, has really taken a hit. Even the relatively uncommon Voit VR-2 Mariner has lost serious value. A couple of years ago, an unrestored, decent chrome example would easily fetch $600 or more. The last one on eBay went for about $400. Great time to buy, BAD time to sell....

Greg

 

[John C. Ratliff]

SeaRat,

While I agree with you about the 50 Fathom breathing better with the larger venturi hole oriented toward the inhalation horn, your reasoning for Voit doing so is somewhat flawed in my opinion.

You have written in the past that Voit choose to do so because they did not want a lower priced model to outperform the Voit Navy. The Navy was not introduced on the market until the year after the 50 Fathom was discontinued. The VR-1 Sportsman was sold during part of the time that the VCR-2 was on the market. A well tuned VR-1 typically will outperform a VCR-2 when the cylinder pressure is below 1,300psi or so. Above that pressure, the downstream design will generally exhibit a lower work-of-breathing score.

The VR-2 Mariner was not cataloged during the same time frame as the VCR-2. Even if it were, the DA design was never known as an easy breathing reg.

Gagnan developed the downstream system in an attempt to "solve" the primary weakness of the Mistral design, that being a fairly small orifice. While the Mistral is an outstanding design, only so much gas can flow through such a small opening. While it is true that Cousteau's team used the Mistral to depths of approximately 400fsw, they were using heliox mixes. The appropriate gas mixture for such a dive would have the same density as air at a depth of less than 120fsw. I've personally used a Mistral valve at 150ffw (on air), and you have to work at each inhalation. I've also used a downstream valve at the same general depth, and found it to be a bit easier. Of course, at that depth on air, I wouldn't completely trust my judgment...

As far as a serial number tag goes, I've rebuilt more than 25 VCR-2 regs over the years, and have yet to find such a tag. I don't have the experience that Dan does, but I have worked on a few that appeared to have never been serviced.

Also, I do not drill an additional hole in the top can. I merely orient the opening of the circlip toward the inhalation horn and then apply 60-100 inch pounds of measured torque to the yoke retainer nut. That way, the owner can glance at the circlip and immediately tell if the regulator's valve body has moved from the proper setting. Again, yes, the reg does have markedly better venturi action with the body oriented in that fashion.

Greg

Greg,

Thanks for the clarification on the Voit Navy. I stand corrected. I will go back to that old post and make a correction. Thank you!

The desire at the time was not really for "easy breathing." One of the failings of the USD Overpressure Breathing regulator, according to Fred Roberts, was that it was too easy to breath. This regulator has "...the venturi air (was) piped directly to the mouthpiece via a small tube on the inside of the regulator intake hose. The chief objection to this arrangement was that the air tended to gush and occasionally the velocity at which it passed the teeth was objectionable..." (Fred Roberts, Basic Scuba, page 1891). Some divers did not want the "increased" air consumption due to ease of breathing too.

Concerning the Voit VRC-2 50 Fathom, I would not dive it for one other reason. While the painted box looks great, it did not stand up over time. I have seen some with peeling paint after some years' of use. If that paint is scratched, I think it may be prone to deterioration and peeling. The Voit Blue 40 Fathom, with the plastic box, is almost indestructible though.

I liked your idea about the orientation of the valve, using the circlip to show where it is. I'll put that one to use.

I have another idea, which has to do with the Mistral. The Royal Mistral not only had a balanced single stage design, but also was simply missing the Mistral orifice. Instead, as I remember some photos from Bryan it simply had the screwed opening. To create some turbulence, it used a piece of metal brazed onto the box in the intake, to lower the opening. What I'm wondering is whether the same effect could be seen by removing the orifice on a Mistral, and then orienting the opening just off the side of the intake on the box like the Stream Air had; could this work, and provide more air flow at the same time? The advertisement (from memory--very risky memory) said that the Royal Mistral could flow 40 cubic feet of air a minute. I think this had something to do with it.

SeaRat

 

[DaleC]

I have to say that if I had them I might be tempted to keep one as is and dive the other. Tough call though. Something to consider is that sport diving is only about 60 -70 years old now and representative items like this are already hard to find. Imagine the state of affairs 100 years from now. If not for the collectors out there a whole portion of dive history would wind up in the scrap yard (which is where a local LDS owner told me all old gear belongs).

 

[Greg Barlow]

Greg,

Thanks for the clarification on the Voit Navy. I stand corrected. I will go back to that old post and make a correction. Thank you!

The desire at the time was not really for "easy breathing." One of the failings of the USD Overpressure Breathing regulator, according to Fred Roberts, was that it was too easy to breath. This regulator has "...the venturi air (was) piped directly to the mouthpiece via a small tube on the inside of the regulator intake hose. The chief objection to this arrangement was that the air tended to gush and occasionally the velocity at which it passed the teeth was objectionable..." (Fred Roberts, Basic Scuba, page 1891). Some divers did not want the "increased" air consumption due to ease of breathing too.

Concerning the Voit VRC-2 50 Fathom, I would not dive it for one other reason. While the painted box looks great, it did not stand up over time. I have seen some with peeling paint after some years' of use. If that paint is scratched, I think it may be prone to deterioration and peeling. The Voit Blue 40 Fathom, with the plastic box, is almost indestructible though.

I liked your idea about the orientation of the valve, using the circlip to show where it is. I'll put that one to use.

I have another idea, which has to do with the Mistral. The Royal Mistral not only had a balanced single stage design, but also was simply missing the Mistral orifice. Instead, as I remember some photos from Bryan it simply had the screwed opening. To create some turbulence, it used a piece of metal brazed onto the box in the intake, to lower the opening. What I'm wondering is whether the same effect could be seen by removing the orifice on a Mistral, and then orienting the opening just off the side of the intake on the box like the Stream Air had; could this work, and provide more air flow at the same time? The advertisement (from memory--very risky memory) said that the Royal Mistral could flow 40 cubic feet of air a minute. I think this had something to do with it.

SeaRat

The original DX design didn't really contain the same venturi design as that used in the later versions. The small green hose was connected directly to the valve's body. That fast moving gas passing through the mouthpiece insert was directed straight into the diver's mouth. As that rapidly moving gas escaped from the small holes, it created an area of low pressure within the hose/mouthpiece section. That low pressure area then "pulled" a significant amount of air from within the cans and hoses into the mouthpiece as well. If a diver took a quick, deep breath the diaphragm could be drawn down into the cans due to the considerable vacuum.

The DW used a nozzle to direct the fast moving gas flow into the inhalation horn. Due to the same issues, the nozzle was aimed slightly to the side of the horn so that a controlled amount of turbulence occurred, thus lessening the venturi effect. You are correct in that you could have simply used a hole, just as USD did with the Royal Mistral. However, just as the RM, and the Voit 50 Fathom, you would need an additional port to provide additional flow into the cans. Just think of it as a means of controlling the venturi so that it didn't become excessive as was the case with the DX. It is this reason why Voit's engineers likely used the small venturi hole in the 50 Fathom. Their logic was that because the hole's diameter was smaller than the one of the opposite side, the velocity would be greater. That greater velocity would then create a greater amount of venturi assist. In theory, at least...I believe that the hole was just too small for adequate effect. As we both concur, the reg simply breathes easier with the body's position rotated 180 degrees.

The Mistral's venturi tube could be pointed directly down the horn's center because it used smaller diameter side vents. Those ports ventilated the cans so that the assist could never get out of control. Just as with the RM, carefully placed secondary ports would have done the same thing. USD probably choose the Mistral venturi tube for ease of manufacture. Plus, it allowed them to retrofit all the DX and DW valve assemblies with the new design without requiring any drilling operations.

I agree on not diving the painted VCR-2 regs. I have two of them, and rarely are they used. It is just too easy to scratch the paint. I normally use my 1961 chrome versions, or one of my two faux Blue 50 Fathoms.

The painted ones sure are pretty, though...

BTW, I had a chance to dive an experimental balanced single stage regulator about a month ago. It was simply incredible. The reg had a cracking effort that was so light that the duckbill had to be carefully fitted to avoid a free flow while vertical in the water column. If it makes it to production, a lot of people will desire one. It truly is balanced, as there was no perceptible difference in the breathing effort with changing cylinder pressure.

Funny, the gear is now vintage, but is actually better than when new thanks for advances in the reproduction parts. It wasn't long again that I was trying to patch up rotten diaphragms.

Greg