Thinking of upgrading...Digital SLR??

[ssra30]

I think Ikelite did say sometimes in the past that Fuji S3 will fit in its Fuji housing. Unfortunately I think that for the price, the improvement in the CCD does not quite offset the higher price than its competitor and the improvement in the ergonomics over S2 was not very significant. Since its release, there has not been a lot of talk about it for underwater use anywhere I can see. I second the D70s or 20D as a good place to start. The 350 or D50 may be a bit cheaper but when you are done with everything else, the price difference is very minimal so you might as well get a camera that has a bit more feature/ergonomics for long term use.
Olympus dSLR is interesting with cheap housing available but lens choice is still limiting and some lenses are incredibly expensive so in the end, you won't save that much more money.

On tricky thing with depth of field, digital PnS actually has incredible DoF. Oly C5050 at F8 has a hugh depth of field in comparison to dSLR at f8. Of course you are stuck with F8 with c5050 but depending on lenses that you use with your dSLR, you can go up to f30's-50's even. I tend to shoot most of my macro shot around F18-22 but depth of field is not wider than C5050.

btw I believe that at the same f-stop, dSLR DoF is a bit wider than film SLR also.

 

[RonFrank]

and don't forget www.wetpixel.com

But i would suggest if you are gonna buy, buy something that will grow with you, not a cheap end Canon Rebel or new Nikon D50. But Canon and Nikon are definitely your only bets, Canon seems to have the better cameras, Nikon the better lenses.

Canon IMO hardly has BETTER cameras, and Nikon does NOT have better lenses.

This is a discussion best not had on this forum, but saying that either is better is a Chevy/Ford, APerks/Zeagle, Johnson/Mecury debate.

The reality is that Nikon is better.... period :11:

Realistically, both systems have advantages, however unless on is ready to dump 100K on lenses either system offers more pro level lenses then anyone will every buy including most pros. Canon uses a less traditional layout in their digital SLR's, but currently with the D2x available, Canon has nothing on Nikon in the DSLR body area.

As for the advice of NOT purchasing the lower end camera's I'd suggest the opposite. IMO the Rebel is crippleware, but the new Canon 350D looks to be a great entry level DSLR.

Keep in mind the pro level DSLR's are BIG, EXPENSIVE, and have housing that cost more than the body's (WHAT is UP with THAT???).

Less expensive DSLR's do NOT produce lower quality images in generaly until one get's into the D2x/1Ds Mark II level where we are discussing camera body's that cost 5k-8k, and those camera's are designed for those that need the ultimate in crop options or need to go big (20x30" prints) -or- they need the ultimate in high speed body's and max resolution.

Lower level DSLR's IMO are the BEST alternative for UW. They are faster than ANY flash system, and will produce outstanding image quality up to 16x20".

Other very good DSLR options include Minolta, Oly, Sigma (hey that Foveon chip is NOTHING to sneeze at) and Fuji. I'm not so sure about the housing available for those bodies, but I KNOW that the OLY and Fuji have UW housings.

 

[jiveturkey]

Thanks for the imput everyone. Well it seems everyone agrees that Digi SLR is the way to go. Now all I have to do is finance the move. I think it's going to have to be gradual. I can't afford to drop that much money all at once. I'll have to buy one piece at a time, wait a few months and buy another. That bad thing about that is by the time I end up with a full system, there'll be something better on the market. Sometimes technology is a pain in the butt.

 

[RonFrank]

Thanks for the imput everyone. Well it seems everyone agrees that Digi SLR is the way to go. Now all I have to do is finance the move. I think it's going to have to be gradual. I can't afford to drop that much money all at once. I'll have to buy one piece at a time, wait a few months and buy another. That bad thing about that is by the time I end up with a full system, there'll be something better on the market. Sometimes technology is a pain in the butt.

Unless you plan on dumping 5k on a body, something better is here today.

The sensor technology is hardly at a standstill, but is now at a point where it's enough for most. Keep in mind that mpix is NOT the benchmark of a great camera. Rather everything else. The focus speed, fps, metering, TTL, and most other things that work together to make a great camera are NOT new, but have been developing since the mid 80's, and at this point are so good that photographers can capture razor sharp images of birds in flight thanks to AF systems that are outstanding.

Most people are NOT worthy of the equipment they own, so do not worry about something better coming out as the difference is just not that much for most shooters.

And 8 mpix sensor vs. a 6mpix sensor provides a 12% increase in resolution, but that is NOT going to be a factor unless one PUSHES the limits of the print size. Even with that, uprezzing is so good that it's possible to produce good qualilty billboards with a 6mpix camera (DSLR) assuming the image is perfection when shot.

Work on being a better photographer, not purchasing better equipment. There are plenty of professionals making a living with bodies like the D70, so unless one needs a high speed monster to freeze sports or birds, camera's like the 1DMarkII, D2x, and D2H are not necessary for most. ANYONE using a flash system is limited by recycle times which are a far cry from even the D70 3fps.

 

[ssra30]

I don't want to get into Canon vs Nikon debate either but I assume that the initial post about Canon has better body and Nikon has better lens probably boiled down to 20D vs D70 (I'll leave the D1s Mk II vs D2X for somebody else). 20D does have bigger viewfinder and better autofocus system than D70. Picture quality is well matched but overall, I'll agree that D20 body has a slight edge over D70, at least from ergonomic standpoint. Don't know if Nikon has better lens but at least for underwater use, it has a couple of extra lenses that Canon does not have so the lens line up for Nikon is more flexible in this regard.

Only Ikelite so far supports 350D. With such rapid turnover of Canon body, I think most housing manufacturers will have to pick and choose what they may or may not support. Unless you have your mind set on Ikelite anyway, D20 at least for now will give a wider choice of housing.

Don't know about working on being a better photographer as my talent seem to be limited and for now, it seem easier to upgrade equipments rather than myself

 

[jiveturkey]

Unless you plan on dumping 5k on a body, something better is here today.

The sensor technology is hardly at a standstill, but is now at a point where it's enough for most. Keep in mind that mpix is NOT the benchmark of a great camera. Rather everything else. The focus speed, fps, metering, TTL, and most other things that work together to make a great camera are NOT new, but have been developing since the mid 80's, and at this point are so good that photographers can capture razor sharp images of birds in flight thanks to AF systems that are outstanding.

Most people are NOT worthy of the equipment they own, so do not worry about something better coming out as the difference is just not that much for most shooters.

And 8 mpix sensor vs. a 6mpix sensor provides a 12% increase in resolution, but that is NOT going to be a factor unless one PUSHES the limits of the print size. Even with that, uprezzing is so good that it's possible to produce good qualilty billboards with a 6mpix camera (DSLR) assuming the image is perfection when shot.

Work on being a better photographer, not purchasing better equipment. There are plenty of professionals making a living with bodies like the D70, so unless one needs a high speed monster to freeze sports or birds, camera's like the 1DMarkII, D2x, and D2H are not necessary for most. ANYONE using a flash system is limited by recycle times which are a far cry from even the D70 3fps.

Actually, what I meant to say was that I want something that wont' be obsolete. For example, they don't even make my current camera anymore. Of course they're still floating around, ebay has lots of c4000s. But I'd like to be able to walk into a camera store in 5 years and still be able to have access to parts for my camera. Back to my girlfriend's camera, it's an old pentax but you can still find any kind of componant you would want for it. That's what i'm looking for in a digital camera. But I'd like this to be the last camera I ever have to purchase.

 

[ssra30]

Well, Nikon dSLR generally has longer shelf life than Canon, it seems. Certainly older dSLR like Nikon D1 series, Canon D60 etc are still around and you can still get service for them but I don't know how long that is going to last. This is certainly one area that is risky about dSLR. Does anyone know if Nikon still can service Nikon E2N? Of course I think that if you have an E2N that needs any significant repair today, you are probably better off buying a new dSLR as prices are coming down steadily. At this time and place, I am not looking at dSLR as a long term investment (well, not in the 10-20 years span anyhow) just like buying a new computer. Digital PnS is definitely worse than dSLR in this respect but I don't expect dSLR to have the longevity of film SLR either.

 

[Mike Veitch]

Canon IMO hardly has BETTER cameras, and Nikon does NOT have better lenses.

This is a discussion best not had on this forum, but saying that either is better is a Chevy/Ford, APerks/Zeagle, Johnson/Mecury debate.

The reality is that Nikon is better.... period :11:

Ron, not sure you're statement makes a lot of sense, you say Nikon does not have better lenses and then say Nikon is better period? Sure, sarcasm allowed and everything, i am Canadian so understand sarcasm as second nature... but i have to say chevy, Zeagle????? Ugliest and sloppiest BCD ever made and i dive for a living so know what i am talking about , and of course Yamaha!!!!

I have always used Nikon from Nik V, N/F 90, and now D70. I do underwater photo/video for a living, and i must admit have often thought of switching to Canon as they have always been ahead of Nikon in digital. Don't even try to argue that point as the D2X is brand spanking new and Canon has had a 16mp camera out for what 3 years? I have no interest in losing loads of money changing from Nikon to Canon glass though. I do a lot of magazine work etc. and D70 is just fine for that, as is 20D and so would be the 300 and 350D. I am also not interested in spending a S**tload of money on a camera i don't need when what i have is all i need. However, the D70 viewfinder absolutely sucks, i hate it unequivactely (sp?) I would suggest if you want a system that you can continue to grow into, and the last system you buy (it won't be, you will buy a new one in 5 years then go Subal or Seacam as they have fancy external viewfinders that are soooo much better and will magnify the absolutely horrible viewfinder of the D70. Have never taken a serious look at any of the Canon digs so not sure about the size of their viewfinders but in underwater use it is all about the housing and underwater viewfinder, it might cost a huge bundle more ($900 for Subal and $1500 for Seacam?) but it is the way to go if you don't want to upgrade for a looong time which is what jiveturkey wants.
Basically, any new DSLR is going to have its good points and bad, no one will ever win this argument and they will all be upgraded in 6 months anyway.

the question is what are you going to do with your photos? Do you want to make personal prints for family and friends? Send great shots off on email? Then yes, a D70 or 20D is great for you and will be all you need for the next 20 years. I would go for one of those designs because both are rugged (which is key as my Nik Vs and N90 have gone through loads of abuse over the years) and top quality and have all the options you need. The 300s, 350s, D50s are not nearly as rugged and won't last as long in my opinion.


Mike

 

[RonFrank]

and i must admit have often thought of switching to Canon as they have always been ahead of Nikon in digital. Don't even try to argue that point as the D2X is brand spanking new and Canon has had a 16mp camera out for what 3 years?

How SOON everyone forgets... Nikon had released the D1, the D1x AND the D1H BEFORE Canon even anounced the 1D... sheesh... Three pro level cameras, and Canon had what, the D30, a 3mpix slow plastic wonder that ran over 2K and did NOT meet pro needs....

People like to think Canon has been ahead for ONE reason, and one alone.. MPIX...

And the 1Ds was a 12mpix model. The 16 mpix version came out last December....For that matter if you want to judge everything based on mpix, Kodak has lead the pack NOT Canon, and that Canon 12mpix camera costs 8K as does the current 16mpix version.

IMO both manufactures have strengths and weaknesses, and a DSLR can NOT be measured by mpix alone...

Basically, any new DSLR is going to have its good points and bad, no one will ever win this argument and they will all be upgraded in 6 months anyway.

IMO, the playing field is leveling off... For a LONG time one could not really argue if Canon or Nikon or really anyone else was BEST because in the days of film, there was really not a huge technical advantage.

Enter Digital, and Canon took a gamble (inhouse manufacturing of ALL components) and won. Of course Canon has always announced 5 bodys to Nikon's one, so once Canon ramped up for digital they bombarded the market with bodies, and continue to do so.

However the advancements are slowing down, and 8mpix is about enough for all but SOME picky pro's, and gear craving wannabes...

the question is what are you going to do with your photos? Do you want to make personal prints for family and friends? Send great shots off on email? Then yes, a D70 or 20D is great for you and will be all you need for the next 20 years. I would go for one of those designs because both are rugged (which is key as my Nik Vs and N90 have gone through loads of abuse over the years) and top quality and have all the options you need. The 300s, 350s, D50s are not nearly as rugged and won't last as long in my opinion.
Mike

You hit the nail on the head. MOST ask what is the BEST camera, few even bother to discuss WHAT the heck they will use it for??? I preach on DPREVIEW often, the right tool for the job. Forget about mpix, fps, high end optics that one will never purchase, and instead ask, what is my output media, what subjects will I need to shoot and in what environment, and what are my goals? These three factors dictate the tool that is necessary.

As for if the D70 or even the 20D are rugged... LOL.. They are made of plastic, and I know photographers who have already worn through a D70 shutter with use.

NONE of these camera's are built for the reps that a hard core photojournalist or busy portrait photographer is going to put them through in a year. however they are CHEAP, so when ones shutter stops working after 80,000 reps, then get another body. :59: IMO one is more likely to flood a body than wear it out UW.

I've shoot with the D1x, and the F4s, and personally like the larger pro models, and they stand heavy use and abuse (not that I try to abuse them). However it is more to carry around.